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  #181  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:30 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Then you believe a man can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven?
Now, we are forgiven when we trust in God. Just because a person is justified does not mean he will never sin again
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  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
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  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #182  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:32 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
BTW what I wanted to know was not so much how we receive forgiveness, but what exactly is receiving forgiveness? Is it merely a realization that we are forgiven?

If you say "experience" what does that mean? how can one be forgiven and not experience it?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #183  
Old 02-18-2010, 11:13 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Now, we are forgiven when we trust in God. Just because a person is justified does not mean he will never sin again
I agree that the person justified by faith can certainly 'sin again.' I agree with you that such a person remains justified by faith, BUT I reject the idea that such a person can be simultaneously unforgiven.

You've been taking the position that 1John 1:9 teaches a believer who sins needs to confess his sin in order to be forgiven. Since you hold that a man can be, at the same time, justified by faith and unforgiven, I need you to explain to me how this can be so.

How can a man be justified and unforgiven at the same time?
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  #184  
Old 02-19-2010, 09:45 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
BTW what I wanted to know was not so much how we receive forgiveness, but what exactly is receiving forgiveness? Is it merely a realization that we are forgiven?
The heart acknowledges depravity and returns to God through faith in the finished work of Christ. 'Receiving' forgiveness is 'experiencing' it first hand by faith. Man personally experiences the forgiveness of the Cross when he 1) hears the Good News of the Cross and 2) comes to place his trust in the once for all remission of the Cross.

Man 'receives' the forgiveness of the Cross when his heart is 'purified by faith' and his 'conscience of sin' purged. This miraculous 'healing' of the heart takes place when he calls on the name of the Lord in faith recognizing the finished work of the Cross took place on his behalf. Having a good (cleansed/purged/sprinkled/purified) conscience toward God by faith he is then baptized.

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If you say "experience" what does that mean? how can one be forgiven and not experience it?
If a man is wronged by another, that man can forgive the other in his own heart whether his transgressor hears of his forgiveness or not. Consider the son who sins against his father and moves far away. In his dying moments the father makes it known to all that he has forgiven his estranged son. Years later the son comes to acknowledge his sin against his father and returns home only to find that his father has passed. He is devastated and his conscience of sin is tearing his soul apart.

Is the son forgiven? YES

Has he experienced this forgiveness? NOT YET

Devastated and yearning for a healing of his heart he finally learns that his father forgave him many years earlier and had never ceased loving him.

Upon hearing this good news the son chooses to place his trust in its reality. This results in a healing in his soul and a cleansing of his conscience of sin. The son moves forward attempting to live a life which would have been pleasing to his loving father.

How long had the son been forgiven? Ever since his father forgave him prior to dying. Though forgiven for many years, had the son experienced his father's forgiveness? NO, he did not experience the forgiveness of his father until he learned of it and came to rest in the reality of the historic forgiveness. The Gospel of his father's reconciliation brought healing.

Again, please explain to me how a man can be justified and unforgiven at the same time.
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  #185  
Old 02-19-2010, 09:48 AM
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Adino View Post
I agree that the person justified by faith can certainly 'sin again.' I agree with you that such a person remains justified by faith, BUT I reject the idea that such a person can be simultaneously unforgiven.

You've been taking the position that 1John 1:9 teaches a believer who sins needs to confess his sin in order to be forgiven. Since you hold that a man can be, at the same time, justified by faith and unforgiven, I need you to explain to me how this can be so.

How can a man be justified and unforgiven at the same time?
Good question!
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  #186  
Old 02-19-2010, 10:03 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Adino View Post
So he is immediately in a state of condemnation. Correct?
So if your heart is against the Spirit you are not dead to him? Can God dwell against resistance? Can God justify a heart that is turned against him? NO!
God judges the heart just or unjust. Which is unto life or death.
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  #187  
Old 02-19-2010, 10:07 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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TheLegalist wrote: Ok... we'll simplify it for you. Does the Spirit of God dwell in an unforgiven believer who has sinned?
Can God dwell in a heart that is at enmity with him? Also what do you mean by dwell? Dwell would be to me relational. If you are denying communion with God by sin... NO. It's a matter of enmity of the heart. God cannot forgive you if you have not asked. You will not ask if your heart is toward the flesh and against God. God dwells in our hearts by faith.... Faith is a righteous response... his Word in agreement. It bears witness etc... Thus God is in us by us responding to his Word and He is there because his Word is being realized. If you are not responding you are dead and denying God.
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  #188  
Old 02-19-2010, 10:44 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

Legalist, Scripture teaches that the believer is passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26). Does the believer who sins pass back and forth between death and life each and every time he sins (be it a sin of commissin, omission, or inadvertance) then repents to restore right relationship?

Dude, how do you ever know you are in right relation with God?

How do you ever know there is not even the smallest something in your life breaking fellowship with the Holy God and bringing condemnation?

Last edited by Adino; 02-19-2010 at 10:48 AM.
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  #189  
Old 02-19-2010, 11:05 AM
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Legalist, Scripture teaches that the believer is passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26). Does the believer who sins pass back and forth between death and life each and every time he sins (be it a sin of commissin, omission, or inadvertance) then repents to restore right relationship?

Dude, how do you ever know you are in right relation with God?

How do you ever know there is not even the smallest something in your life breaking fellowship with the Holy God and bringing condemnation?
This is one of the things that I believe frustrates the believer steeped in legalism ... I thank God that I have been set free.
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  #190  
Old 02-19-2010, 12:13 PM
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Re: Remitted on the Cross or not?

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This is one of the things that I believe frustrates the believer steeped in legalism ... I thank God that I have been set free.
Dan! Great to see you, Bro!

YES! How frustrating it must be to never ABSOLUTELY KNOW if you've performed well enough to be viewed as right before God.

Talk about bondage!!!!!!
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