Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Dr. Adam Clark gives this literal translation of Psalms 68:11: Of the female preachers, there was a great host.

Isaiah 40:9: Dr. Clark’s literal translation is also enlightening, AO daughter that bring good tidings to Zion, get thee up into the high mountain. O thou woman that publishes good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid, say unto the city of Judah, Behold your God.”

Here is a list of translations of Psalms 68:11. One can certainly draw strength from. “The Lord giveth the word, the women that published the tiding are a great host” (Psalm 68:11 ASV).

“The Lord gives the word (of power): the women who bear and publish (the news) are a great host” (Amp. Bible).

“The Lord proclaims good news, or the word, women bearing good news” (New English Bible).

“The Lord gives the word; women bear the glad tidings” [a Vast Army] (New American Bible).

“The Lord gave matter to the women to tell of the great army” (The Geneva Bible).

“The Lord gave the command and many women carried the news” (The Good News Bible).

“When the Lord sent news of victory, the women who told it were a mighty host” (James Moffatts Translation).

The word “publish” in Hebrew is “basar” (Strong’s 1319), which means “to announce (glad news); messenger, preach, publish and shewforth.”

The Bible teaches a “vast army” of women proclaimers. According to Strong’s 6635, it means “A mass of persons.”

Do not have the time to sit here & respond to your cut & paste jobs all day [most of which I've already dealt w/ anyway]. Adam Clarke also believed that people lived on the moon & Judas is in heaven! He was also a staunch trinitarian [as most of your paste jobs are]....ALL of which you reject! That is, until we get to the doctrines that fit your fancy.

At the end of the day [& the innumerable copy & paste jobs]....you've yet to demonstrate what you assume & speculate. I suggest everyone on this thread get the book "Restoring Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. A Response to Evangelical Feminism." It puts to utter silence every supposed "woman preacher" doctrine that exists [it's 566 pages w/ heavy end-notes].

I'll save my interaction w/ Daniel Wallace & Douglas Moo for another day....which would only fall on deaf ears anyway! Praying that God will lead "women preacher's" to repentance for outright defiance to the written Word of God...not to mention what it does to His order of creation & headship. It's sad...very sad..................

"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet. For Adam was first formed, then Eve....These things I write to you so that you may know how to behave yourself in the house-hold of God, which is the church...".

It's still there & isn't going anywhere...............RDP.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Here is a list of the post 2000 Bible versions that I have available (and their earlier counterparts if possible): ESV 2001, NIV 1984, NIV 2010, TNIV 2005 NLT 2007, ISV 2008*, MSG 2002* (The Message).

Versions I am missing that I would like to see Romans 16:7 in: NLT 1996. I am wondering if they used Junias in the earlier version and Junia in the later version like the NIV did.

So what did I find? I found that of all those versions the only 2 that used the name Junias are the ISV and the MSG. The MSG new testament was published in 1993. The ISV new testament was published in 1998. This seems to fit in the theory that translations done in the 1900's use the name Junias while translations done in the 2000's use the name Junia.

Another point of interest is that the NASB is a derivative of the Revised Version. The ESV is also. The NASB 1995 uses the name Junias while the ESV uses the name Junia. This seems to support the theory that bible translations are migrating away from the name Junias and that this migration began around the year 2000.

You need to get "Restoring Biblical Man-hood and Womanhood. A Response to Evangelical Feminism." D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Thomas Schreiner, Douglas Moo, etc., etc. all combine to exegetically & syntactically demonstrate the fallacy of "women preacher's"....it's extremely exhaustive & well shows that Junias was most likely a man, based upon the masculine declension, early church father's quotes [Epiphanus, Origen, etc.], Lexical quotes, etc.....most of which I've been trying to point out the whole time!

The book does say that a woman's name is possible, but highly unlikely for said reasons. Regardless, this individaul was "highly esteemed in the eyes of the apostles" [see translation offered in same book]. I Tim. 2:11-15/I Cor. 14:34 plainly militates against your unbiblical position. Try again..............

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Can you explain 1 Timothy 2:15? If you can't then it would appear that any interpretation on 1 Timothy 2:12-15 is on shaky ground.

Here's a novel idea, why not just believe what it says for the reasons it stated???

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rdp

You need to get "Restoring Biblical Man-hood and Womanhood. A Response to Evangelical Feminism." D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Thomas Schreiner, Douglas Moo, etc., etc. all combine to exegetically & syntactically demonstrate the fallacy of "women preacher's"....it's extremely exhaustive & well shows that Junias was most likely a man, based upon the masculine declension, early church father's quotes [Epiphanus, Origen, etc.], Lexical quotes, etc.....most of which I've been trying to point out the whole time!

The book does say that a woman's name is possible, but highly unlikely for said reasons. Regardless, this individaul was "highly esteemed in the eyes of the apostles" [see translation offered in same book]. I Tim. 2:11-15/I Cor. 14:34 plainly militates against your unbiblical position. Try again..............

What masculine declension?

Everything I have read shows it's merely an accent that distinguishes between male or female and the jury seems out on what the accent should be except that...

sn The feminine name Junia, though common in Latin, is quite rare in Greek (apparently only three instances of it occur in Greek literature outside Rom 16:7, according to the data in the TLG [D. Moo, Romans [NICNT], 922]). The masculine Junias (as a contraction for Junianas), however, is rarer still: Only one instance of the masculine name is known in extant Greek literature (Epiphanius mentions Junias in his Index discipulorum 125). Further, since there are apparently other husband-wife teams mentioned in this salutation (Prisca and Aquila [v. 3], Philologus and Julia [v. 15]), it might be natural to think of Junia as a feminine name. (This ought not be pressed too far, however, for in v. 12 all three individuals are women [though the first two are linked together], and in vv. 9–11 all the individuals are men.) In Greek only a difference of accent distinguishes between Junias (male) and Junia (female). If it refers to a woman, it is possible (1) that she had the gift of apostleship (not the office), or (2) that she was not an apostle but along with Andronicus was esteemed by (or among) the apostles. As well, the term “prominent” probably means “well known,” suggesting that Andronicus and Junia(s) were well known to the apostles

Biblical Studies Press. (2006; 2006). The NET Bible First Edition Notes (Ro 16:6–7). Biblical Studies Press.

Metzger says

On the basis of the weight of manuscript evidence the Committee was unanimous in rejecting Ἰουλίαν (see also the next variant in ver. 15) in favor of Ἰουνιαν, but was divided as to how the latter should be accented. Some members, considering it unlikely that a woman would be among those styled “apostles,” understood the name to be masculine Ἰουνιᾶν (“Junias”), thought to be a shortened form of Junianus (see Bauer-Aland, Wörterbuch, pp. 770 f.). Others, however, were impressed by the facts that (1) the female Latin name Junia occurs more than 250 times in Greek and Latin inscriptions found in Rome alone, whereas the male name Junias is unattested anywhere, and (2) when Greek manuscripts began to be accented, scribes wrote the feminine Ἰουνίαν (“Junia”). (For recent discussions, see R. R. Schulz in Expository Times, IIC (1986–87), pp. 108–110; J. A. Fitzmyer, Romans (Anchor Bible Commentary, 1993), pp. 737 f.; and R. S. Cervin in New Testament Studies, XL (1994), pp. 464–470.)
The “A” decision of the Committee must be understood as applicable only as to the spelling of the name Ἰουνιαν, not the accentuation.


Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (475–476). London; New York: United Bible Societies.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What masculine declension?

Everything I have read shows it's merely an accent that distinguishes between male or female and the jury seems out on what the accent should be except that...

sn The feminine name Junia, though common in Latin, is quite rare in Greek (apparently only three instances of it occur in Greek literature outside Rom 16:7, according to the data in the TLG [D. Moo, Romans [NICNT], 922]). The masculine Junias (as a contraction for Junianas), however, is rarer still: Only one instance of the masculine name is known in extant Greek literature (Epiphanius mentions Junias in his Index discipulorum 125). Further, since there are apparently other husband-wife teams mentioned in this salutation (Prisca and Aquila [v. 3], Philologus and Julia [v. 15]), it might be natural to think of Junia as a feminine name. (This ought not be pressed too far, however, for in v. 12 all three individuals are women [though the first two are linked together], and in vv. 9–11 all the individuals are men.) In Greek only a difference of accent distinguishes between Junias (male) and Junia (female). If it refers to a woman, it is possible (1) that she had the gift of apostleship (not the office), or (2) that she was not an apostle but along with Andronicus was esteemed by (or among) the apostles. As well, the term “prominent” probably means “well known,” suggesting that Andronicus and Junia(s) were well known to the apostles

Biblical Studies Press. (2006; 2006). The NET Bible First Edition Notes (Ro 16:6–7). Biblical Studies Press.

Metzger says

On the basis of the weight of manuscript evidence the Committee was unanimous in rejecting Ἰουλίαν (see also the next variant in ver. 15) in favor of Ἰουνιαν, but was divided as to how the latter should be accented. Some members, considering it unlikely that a woman would be among those styled “apostles,” understood the name to be masculine Ἰουνιᾶν (“Junias”), thought to be a shortened form of Junianus (see Bauer-Aland, Wörterbuch, pp. 770 f.). Others, however, were impressed by the facts that (1) the female Latin name Junia occurs more than 250 times in Greek and Latin inscriptions found in Rome alone, whereas the male name Junias is unattested anywhere, and (2) when Greek manuscripts began to be accented, scribes wrote the feminine Ἰουνίαν (“Junia”). (For recent discussions, see R. R. Schulz in Expository Times, IIC (1986–87), pp. 108–110; J. A. Fitzmyer, Romans (Anchor Bible Commentary, 1993), pp. 737 f.; and R. S. Cervin in New Testament Studies, XL (1994), pp. 464–470.)
The “A” decision of the Committee must be understood as applicable only as to the spelling of the name Ἰουνιαν, not the accentuation.


Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (475–476). London; New York: United Bible Societies.

A very learned Greek professor dissected the term for me [he graduated Greek V w/ an A!]. And, as I said, get the book, then come talk to me!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by rdp

A very learned Greek professor dissected the term for me [he graduated Greek V w/ an A!]. And, as I said, get the book, then come talk to me!

Do any well-learned and respected Greek Scholars disagree with your learned and well-respected Greek scholar?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What masculine declension?

Everything I have read shows it's merely an accent that distinguishes between male or female and the jury seems out on what the accent should be except that...

sn The feminine name Junia, though common in Latin, is quite rare in Greek (apparently only three instances of it occur in Greek literature outside Rom 16:7, according to the data in the TLG [D. Moo, Romans [NICNT], 922]). The masculine Junias (as a contraction for Junianas), however, is rarer still: Only one instance of the masculine name is known in extant Greek literature (Epiphanius mentions Junias in his Index discipulorum 125). Further, since there are apparently other husband-wife teams mentioned in this salutation (Prisca and Aquila [v. 3], Philologus and Julia [v. 15]), it might be natural to think of Junia as a feminine name. (This ought not be pressed too far, however, for in v. 12 all three individuals are women [though the first two are linked together], and in vv. 9–11 all the individuals are men.) In Greek only a difference of accent distinguishes between Junias (male) and Junia (female). If it refers to a woman, it is possible (1) that she had the gift of apostleship (not the office), or (2) that she was not an apostle but along with Andronicus was esteemed by (or among) the apostles. As well, the term “prominent” probably means “well known,” suggesting that Andronicus and Junia(s) were well known to the apostles

Biblical Studies Press. (2006; 2006). The NET Bible First Edition Notes (Ro 16:6–7). Biblical Studies Press.

Metzger says

On the basis of the weight of manuscript evidence the Committee was unanimous in rejecting Ἰουλίαν (see also the next variant in ver. 15) in favor of Ἰουνιαν, but was divided as to how the latter should be accented. Some members, considering it unlikely that a woman would be among those styled “apostles,” understood the name to be masculine Ἰουνιᾶν (“Junias”), thought to be a shortened form of Junianus (see Bauer-Aland, Wörterbuch, pp. 770 f.). Others, however, were impressed by the facts that (1) the female Latin name Junia occurs more than 250 times in Greek and Latin inscriptions found in Rome alone, whereas the male name Junias is unattested anywhere, and (2) when Greek manuscripts began to be accented, scribes wrote the feminine Ἰουνίαν (“Junia”). (For recent discussions, see R. R. Schulz in Expository Times, IIC (1986–87), pp. 108–110; J. A. Fitzmyer, Romans (Anchor Bible Commentary, 1993), pp. 737 f.; and R. S. Cervin in New Testament Studies, XL (1994), pp. 464–470.)
The “A” decision of the Committee must be understood as applicable only as to the spelling of the name Ἰουνιαν, not the accentuation.


Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (475–476). London; New York: United Bible Societies.

I think rdp is referring to the quotes by Epiphanus and Origen and not the actual verse itself. The quotes by them use a masculine (i think) pronoun with the name and this does support the case that it was Junias and not Junia. However rdp failed to even try and refute all the research i did on how modern translations render the name because he knows he was wrong about that point and that I was right (jfrog 1 - rdp 0). So, I'm going to trust the modern new testament scholars that chose to translate the name as Junia (a woman) in EVERY modern new testament translation.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Do any well-learned and respected Greek Scholars disagree with your learned and well-respected Greek scholar?

Apparently the scholars that took part in EVERY modern new testament translation disagree with his scholar. Interesting isn't it?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by rdp

You need to get "Restoring Biblical Man-hood and Womanhood. A Response to Evangelical Feminism." D. A. Carson, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Thomas Schreiner, Douglas Moo, etc., etc. all combine to exegetically & syntactically demonstrate the fallacy of "women preacher's"....it's extremely exhaustive & well shows that Junias was most likely a man, based upon the masculine declension, early church father's quotes [Epiphanus, Origen, etc.], Lexical quotes, etc.....most of which I've been trying to point out the whole time!

The book does say that a woman's name is possible, but highly unlikely for said reasons. Regardless, this individaul was "highly esteemed in the eyes of the apostles" [see translation offered in same book]. I Tim. 2:11-15/I Cor. 14:34 plainly militates against your unbiblical position. Try again..............

Since I'm feeling particularly froggy tonight I am going to disprove rdp's claim that the early church Father's support his position. First I will take the more prominent Origen. rdp claims that Origen used Junias. But the fact is that Origen used Junia, which actually supports my position and not rdp's! Reference: "Commentaria in Epistolam ad Romanos 10, 26 (PG 14, 1281B); 10, 39 (PG 14, 1289A). Thc text printed in Migne has Junia emended to Junias, but the manuscripts have Junia or Julia."

Next we have Epiphanus who did think Julia/s was a man. However, he also thought Priscilla was a man... need I say more? Reference: "Moo, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, 922."

(References taken from http://www.womenpriests.org/classic/brooten.asp)

Now as for rdp using the etc, well there isn't anyone else early enough for him to cite that would matter to us. (jfrog 2 - rdp 0)

[Sister Alvear]

Well, on the internet and in books we can all find something that supports whatever we think on just about any subject. For the record...I have never lost the wonder that HE called me to be a missionary...long before I ever knew what a missionary was and He told me I would come to Brazil long before I ever heard of a Brazil...
He must have known I was female when He called...My daddy was a drunk and mother worked at a little cafe and a baby sitter took us to church...so I really had no experience with christian parents in those young years...my mother was a new christian...
When Jesus visited me I was barely 8...He woke me up and told me when I grew up He had called me to be a missionary to Brazil...I was so young I didn't really even understand...however today...I do understand...and as life's sun sinks for me I expect to hear the one that called say to me, WELL DONE...