The Persecution of Women in the Church

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The dudes that want to reject the infallibility of the Scriptures often doit on the basis of some supposed "cultural" bias that relegates women to a lesser position.

As if the Word of God were corrupted by the cultural prejudices of the men who penned it.

It is upon this premise that they base their practice of picking and choosing what they want to accept, based on how it fits our current culture.

Hmmm...is Crazyhomie and RedeemedCynic both larryboy?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hmmm...is Crazyhomie and RedeemedCynic both larryboy?

If I were to hazard a guess, he might possibly be a mentor of Larryboy.

He could even be the one who sent LB off on that path to the place of confusion and disillusionment where he is today.

A lot LB's arguments sounded like the ones CH is putting out, albeit not as slick and refined.

But he has been in ministry for 23 years and knows the Bible "like the back of his hand."

I'm wondering if he might not be an amputee.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No the topic is about the persecution of women and I addressed that point by pointing out bad things also happen to men.

There is no conspiracy ladies, liberals...take a deep breath....inhale....ahhhhhhhh. Relax....relax....stop listening to that shrill hysterical voice in your head...come on now..ladies and liberals.....feel it? Peace....peace... hahaha

Repeat after me...there is no conspiracy.....there is no conspiracy....we are all equal opportunity victims of da man.

I agree...there is no conspiracy or persecution that I have seen.

If someone feels put-upon or persecuted, that is their experience. It just doesn't happen to be mine.

And let us define persecution...those who cannot preach the gospel or profess Christ openly for fear of death or imprisonment...this is persecution, IMO.

Teaching against women preachers or for a dress or hair 'standard' is not persecution.

Let's ask Mother Alvear if the above is persecution as she knows it, shall we?!

[Coonskinner]

Calling this kind of nonsense "persecution" cheapens the sacrifice made by those who really have been persecuted.

Ask Nona Freeman or Vesta Mangun if they have been persecuted in the Apostolic Church.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

When Paul wrote this to Timothy, he didn't conside what he was writing to be scripture. It was a personal letter. The only reason it's scripture today is because the early church fathers wanted to include it in the package of texts relevant to Christianity. Paul was referring to the sciptures of the Old testament, like the Psalms, Ezekiel, the prophet Moses' writings, etc.

Nice assertion. Can you prove it?

Now consider this...why would Paul tell Timothy to follow teachings that were NOT true? That this was a personal letter is irrelevant. To be sure, many of the writtings were at one time or another PERSONAL to someone who later shared them with the rest of the church. Acts is a personal letter to Theophilus. So is the Gospel of Luke.

But is the CONTENT only to Timothy and NOT about truth?

1Ti 1:1 Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ according to a command of God our Savior, even the Lord Jesus Christ, our Hope,
1Ti 1:2 to Timothy, a true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, peace from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:3 Even as I called on you to remain in Ephesus, (I going to Macedonia), that you might charge some not to teach other doctrines,

1Ti 1:4 nor to give heed to fables and to endless genealogies, which occasion doubts, rather than a stewardship of God in faith,
1Ti 1:5 but the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience, and faith not pretended,

I can go on and on. You see, that it was written to an individual does NOT make the content any less authoritative or true, especially written by an Apostle

Is he writting to Timothy alone? If so why say "men" and "women"? Timothy was himself over other churches. This would mean that Paul is giving Timothy INSTRUCTIONS to give to OTHERS.

1Ti 2:1 First of all then, I exhort that petitions, prayers, supplications, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all the ones being in high position, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet existence in all godliness and dignity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,
1Ti 2:7 to which I was appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 So also the women to adorn themselves in proper clothing, with modesty and sensibleness, not with plaiting, or gold, or pearls, or expensive garments,
1Ti 2:10 but what becomes women professing fear of God, through good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn in silence, in all subjection.
Why would Paul be telling Timothy about what women are to do if this was not an authoritative letter to all?

Why give instructions on what an Overseer is to be if this was only meant for Timothy?
Deacons?
Wives?
Husbands?

Paul is giving Timothy instructions on instructing OTHERS. Paul is an Apostle.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hmmm...is Crazyhomie and RedeemedCynic both larryboy?

Is Larryboy an old friend?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I've never felt put down or persecuted by men, but I have by women.

Have you all really felt like you're un-liberated, unfulfilled, persecuted, held back, disrespected and put down by men?

Originally Posted by Dora

It's obvious you have no experience with any of this so count your blessings, sister.

You just can't relate. It's best you not worry your head about these things.

Didn't happen to you, so it can't possibly have been the experience of others.
Nope! No way.

I do count my blessings Dora as we all should. I can't relate to what some of you are saying. That doesn't mean that what your own experience has been isn't true. And it also doesn't mean that there isn't discrimination in the world today and even in the church. Of course there is. I know there is.

Just because it didn't happen to me in the way it's been framed here by some, doesn't mean it didn't happen to others. Nor has it happened to many many many other women.

I mean goodness! We all have had bad things happen to us. But because 1 or 2 or even 5 people didn't use us right, or mistreated us doesn't mean everyone else needs to get branded with that as well.

[Dora]

Who is "everyone else"????

It rains on the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous. UPC is not the only organization we're talking about here.

After watching the trials of the wacked out Mormon polygamist, and hearing of crazy traditions of the Amish and Mennonites marrying off young girls to much older men, the stuff I hear about Ultraconservative UPC pastors prohibiting their women from wearing red tights or hair bows is NUTHIN!

We've all had difficult times in our lives and challenges to overcome. Some of us are not bitter, just tired of certain people putting their heads in the sand and denying that a problem does actually exist.

But I can't see the problem ever being admitted much less addressed and resolved. I just don't see that happening in my lifetime...well maybe by the time I'm 90 years old they'll realize there really is no moral difference between tv and the internet.

[Coonskinner]

Pull the claws back in, Dora.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Is Larryboy an old friend?

Larryboy is not too bad, though he had a tendency to question EVERYTHING including the word of God....not sure if he was just playing Devils Advocate or what...