The Future of the Oneness Pentecostal Movement

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by pelathais

My compaint - clean up the "I'm holier than thou..." antagonisms that stir up so much division and make good men act in bad ways. This is the root of much of our evil.

I agree with this.

So much finger pointing and judging of one another across aisles and across town between churches and in districts. I don't know how it can ever be obliterated though. People just don't often see themselves as they really are.

I've been amazed over and over again how that people can be so judgmental of others without ever seeming to pause and take account of their own hearts, lives and actions.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

I have heard the church doubled in the 80's in America, and that after this there was a huge increase in foreign fields, including the thousands in Papua, New Guinea and Ethopia.

I do not think we are still hearing any numbers trumpeted of late.

It depends on how and what you count. There has always been a long (and important) debate about the "numbers." The "doubling" to which you refer I believe was in the number of ministers over a period of time. At least I remember an article that stated something to that affect.

The UPC also grew dramatically in number of churches. But one thing that I have noticed is that the reported attendance figure pretty much stayed the same from the 1970's through around 2000. "500,000 in North America" didn't change from the time that the book Meet the UPC was first published around 1982 and the number mentioned on the UPCI.org home page from a few years ago.

The "About" link led to an article that said, "with a reported attendance of 550,000 the UPCI is one of the fastest growing..." The current website states 646,304.

So over a period of about 25 years we see a 29.2% growth; or about 1.168% per year.

For whatever reasons, the "reporting" is either haphazard (always was) or the real growth of church attendance is stagnant at a little over 1%.

Compare this to the growth numbers in Islam for the same time period and you will wonder why we all aren't learning Arabic right now.

So, why aren't we growing? Our 1% isn't even close to the growth rate of North America. In fact we are losing ground. From my personal experience, it's not the "great apostasy" of the last days (great falling away KJV) unless you're willing to say that the Church itself is the root of that apostasy.

And about those numbers from the Foreign field...

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It depends on how and what you count. There has always been a long (and important) debate about the "numbers." The "doubling" to which you refer I believe was in the number of ministers over a period of time. At least I remember an article that stated something to that affect.

The UPC also grew dramatically in number of churches. But one thing that I have noticed is that the reported attendance figure pretty much stayed the same from the 1970's through around 2000. "500,000 in North America" didn't change from the time that the book Meet the UPC was first published around 1982 and the number mentioned on the UPCI.org home page from a few years ago.

The "About" link led to an article that said, "with a reported attendance of 550,000 the UPCI is one of the fastest growing..." The current website states 646,304.

So over a period of about 25 years we see a 29.2% growth; or about 1.168% per year.

For whatever reasons, the "reporting" is either haphazard (always was) or the real growth of church attendance is stagnant at a little over 1%.

Compare this to the growth numbers in Islam for the same time period and you will wonder why we all aren't learning Arabic right now.

So, why aren't we growing? Our 1% isn't even close to the growth rate of North America. In fact we are losing ground. From my personal experience, it's not the "great apostasy" of the last days (great falling away KJV) unless you're willing to say that the Church itself is the root of that apostasy.

And about those numbers from the Foreign field...

The truth not coming out from those who have it all???

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I think its more than that ... its a shifting in the church in general that is tired of tradition, politics as usual and denominationalism ....

This is part of the answer I believe.

I think Alvin was right earlier when he said the whole problem is very complex and there are no quick easy answers. I think the whole apostolic movement as we know it is suffering and the reasons for this? That's another whole topic perhaps.

I still believe though that as much as some will not accept it that God is moving outside of the apostolic movement as we define it and that huge numbers of people are being swept into the church or the body of Christ.

God loves people. His will is that they would NOT be lost. His will is for every man to be saved. That's why an event called "Calvary" ever took place. We put bars and locks where they ought not to be put sometimes. Jesus Christ came to set people free and we don't always realize or don't want to realize how and when and where it's happening.

As long as I've been cognizant of the "UPC" (most of my life), revival was/is coming. It's still a future event to most oneness apostolics while the truth is that revival has taken place in areas where huge numbers of people have been swept into the kingdom.

Perhaps part of the reason why there's so much stagnation in the apostolic movement is because of its failure and unwillingness .... and PRIDE has a lot to do with that ...... to recognize what God has done and is doing around the world.

We point our fingers in judgment and laugh and scoff and perhaps cut off the blessing of God as it might/could be realized in our own ranks if we'd just humble ourselves and get off our high horse thinking that we're the only thing going in the world today.

It's just not true.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pelathais

And about those numbers from the Foreign field...

Yes? What about them bro?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Felicity

This is part of the answer I believe.

I think Alvin was right earlier when he said the whole problem is very complex and there are no quick easy answers. I think the whole apostolic movement as we know it is suffering and the reasons for this? That's another whole topic perhaps.

I still believe though that as much as some will not accept it that God is moving outside of the apostolic movement as we define it and that huge numbers of people are being swept into the church or the body of Christ.

God loves people. His will is that they would NOT be lost. His will is for every man to be saved. That's why an event called "Calvary" ever took place. We put bars and locks where they ought not to be put sometimes. Jesus Christ came to set people free and we don't always realize or don't want to realize how and when and where it's happening.

As long as I've been cognizant of the "UPC" (most of my life), revival was/is coming. It's still a future event to most oneness apostolics while the truth is that revival has taken place in areas where huge numbers of people have been swept into the kingdom.

Perhaps part of the reason why there's so much stagnation in the apostolic movement is because of its failure and unwillingness and PRIDE has a lot to do with that to recognize what God has done and is doing around the world.

We point our fingers in judgment and laugh and scoff and perhaps cut off the blessing of God as it might could be realized in our own ranks if we'd just humble ourselves and get off our high horse thinking that we're the only thing going in the world today.

It's just not true.

Pride for sure...you nailed it. There are those that are so proud of their 6-7 generations of tradition and don't want to admit that God is moving elsewhere.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Pride for sure...you nailed it. There are those that are so proud of their 6-7 generations of tradition and don't want to admit that God is moving elsewhere.

Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psa 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.



This is what the Word says.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psa 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.



This is what the Word says.

Yet, the Word is constantly ignored.

Originally Posted by Felicity

We had NO pedigree. None whatsover and that kind of thinking never ever ever occurred to us or was part of our mentality at all.

Speaking personally of course.

I think God makes room for the gifts and calling He puts on those He chooses. You don't have to strive, push or shove to get to where God is going to take you anyhow.

All true. But please, don't tell anybody I said so!

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I didn't understand Felicity to be speaking of 'to rise' as being exalted up the hierarchy of an organization but as to rise in the favor of God in the work of God whether they are in an organization or not. These men, the cream so to speak, will be approved of God and men not because of who they are but because of God's anointing on their lives.

Thanks sis!

God doesn't use every man He calls in the same way or to the same extent. He doesn't place them all in the same positions. But what does it matter?

Each person is important and the most important thing is that each called, chosen and anointed man of God or woman of God is in their place doing what God has called them to do. It's important to the overall work and to the kingdom of God.

I've also seen those who worked diligently and faithfully "in the shadows" so to speak for many years who never got much recognition and didn't have much "status" as we often think of it. But then suddenly, out of the blue, God puts them smack dab in the middle of things and they fill positions of leadership that you would never have expected. I love seeing this! It's awesome!

Then I've seen those who from a younger age held positions of leadership and responsibility and who might have been regarded as "have made it" as far as status goes ........ fade from sight and go through a time when they were no longer holding and occupying the positions and status they did at one time.

There are times and seasons in the plan of God and God moves men in and out, over and under, around and sometimes leaves them in what might seem like a difficult dry place for a long time. It's all for a purpose. He has His ways. They're far above ours and we don't always understand. But He has a plan. He always knows what He's about. It kind of goes along with being God! Hehe.