Does the golden rule save without the cross? - Page 18

Godsdrummer · #**171** 09-16-2016, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. Romans 6:3 disproves that doctrine in one fell swoop.

The simple fact of that matter is that one is lost without having believed in the death of Christ for our sins, and all this conjecture about what God will do with those who never heard it to begin with only hinders us from actually telling them about it. God will do what he will do with the unreached. I cannot say what he will or won't do with them. But our business is to tell everyone who doesn't know. Simple enough.

No disrespect Mike but could you describe what that means to you? How do you go about telling everyone who does not know about Christ

I know in my life it was about getting someone to come to our church so the preacher could preach "the plan of salvation". I mean honestly, in our world who has not heard about Christ? It seems that we are not propagating the knowledge of Christ rather our particular form of religion. You seem to imply that the world has not heard. Yet the very basis of the Christian religions is that Christ died for our sins, and belief in that very fact.

With that thought in mind, separate the so called "plan of salvation" from the "believe on me by your words". Christ did not qualify that the world would receive the plan of salvation "by your words", he simply stated that the world would believe on him by their words. Man has made the "believe on him" into some set of steps of salvation.

mfblume · #**172** 09-16-2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No disrespect Mike but could you describe what that means to you? How do you go about telling everyone who does not know about Christ

I know in my life it was about getting someone to come to our church so the preacher could preach "the plan of salvation". I mean honestly, in our world who has not heard about Christ? It seems that we are not propagating the knowledge of Christ rather our particular form of religion. You seem to imply that the world has not heard. Yet the very basis of the Christian religions is that Christ died for our sins, and belief in that very fact.

With that thought in mind, separate the so called "plan of salvation" from the "believe on me by your words". Christ did not qualify that the world would receive the plan of salvation "by your words", he simply stated that the world would believe on him by their words. Man has made the "believe on him" into some set of steps of salvation.

Tell them what Peter did. The whole sermon not just verse 38, but including verse 38.

shazeep · #**173** 09-17-2016, 08:36 AM

verse 38? sorry, missed the ref, can't find it.

And i thought Romans 6:3 meant something completely different, hmm. You connect that to No Universalism in some way that i cannot see.

mfblume · #**174** 09-17-2016, 05:23 PM

Indeed.

mfblume · #**175** 09-17-2016, 08:51 PM

Romans 6:3 says ONLY THOSE baptized into Christ's death have that death accounted to them. In other words, NO ONE ELSE. That means that SOME are not in His death. Only those BAPTIZED INTO HIM are baptized into His death.

The very reason the words were mentioned, "As many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ..." means ONLY THIS GROUP.

UnTraditional · #**176** 09-18-2016, 06:17 AM

Many people have heard of Christ, but have not heard the truth about Christ. They have heard the word Christ, but not the real Jesus of the Bible. They have heard of religion, but not the Jesus who came, not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They have heard about coming to Church, but sadly few know of coming to the father through Jesus and being accepted by Him because of Jesus. Some know of a Jesus that sits in judgment, and awaits every little flaw, so as to correct, to discipline, and to chastise, then turn His back on the fallen until they "get it right". They have never heard of the Jesus that says He will not reject them, that he makes them right with God the Father, that He makes them holy, makes them just before God, and then He bears the fruit in and through their lives. They have heard of a Jesus that says if they line up, He will accept them, but not the Jesus who said that it is impossible for them to line up, so He lines them up through His own finished work, and loves them unconditionally. They have heard of a religious Christ, but not the Jesus Christ of the Bible, who loves, heals, saves, and keeps from the gutter most to the uttermost!

shazeep · #**177** 09-18-2016, 06:51 AM

amen--a believer starts out "forgiven."

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Romans 6:3 says ONLY THOSE baptized into Christ's death have that death accounted to them. In other words, NO ONE ELSE. That means that SOME are not in His death. Only those BAPTIZED INTO HIM are baptized into His death.

The very reason the words were mentioned, "As many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ..." means ONLY THIS GROUP.

i guess it depends upon where one puts the emphasis, which in my mind is the "were baptized into His death?" part. If we can read elsewhere that baptism does not save, then i would say that "only those baptized into Christ's death are baptized into Christ," and "Only those BAPTIZED INTO HIM are baptized into His death" is actually being questioned by this verse.

"Don't you know that you are being baptized into Christ's death?"
and don't any of us know of examples of someone "baptized" who later demonstrates that they did not grasp the "death" part?

mfblume · #**178** 09-18-2016, 07:59 AM

The question of Romans 6 about the people not knowing was in response to the previous question of whether or not grace abounding over sin means we should keep on sinning so grace continues to abound. Paul said no. Then he asks, "Know ye not that so man of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized in His death?"

Many believers today really do not understand that either which I believe is the solution to the dilemma of having a moral law we cannot obey, because our deaths with Christ are then explained in Romans 6 to be deaths to sin. Paul said in chapter 7 that we are under law so long as we live. But then 6 says we are not under law. Who can that be? Because we died through Christ. Everyone else is under law.

shazeep · #**179** 09-18-2016, 09:55 AM

well, who is "we?" those who were baptized? All of them? See, you are just going to end up biting your own tail with this perspective imo.

mfblume · #**180** 09-18-2016, 04:12 PM

Anyone baptized into Christ by true belief that it's required for salvation through the Cross is the"us". Period. Simple. God sorts out all the rest. I preach it's baptism in using the name Jesus. And I teach others to do the same. It's all I'll ever do. But I don't judge others if they believe Jesus' death is required to be baptized into it. That's God's business. I preach Acts 2. All of it.

The bible means what it says. It's not elusive understanding. it is REVELATION/UNVEILING/DISCOVERING/REVEALING.