Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God wont ask me why I condemned them because I didn't. They're of no consequence to me. I just know the Bible condemned them.not me.

Your eye is the lamp of the body. When your eye is good, your whole body is also full of light. But when it is bad, your body is also full of darkness.

it may be that you have condemned them because when you read the Bible, you find condemnation. But you have been confronted with plenty of Scripture now that suggests otherwise, and we are all going to reap what we sow, Mike.

Originally Posted by mfblume

When are you going to present Scripture you claim I have problems with? I already explained the good Samaritan and Salvation by child birth. Are you not reading them?

they aren't important now, Mike. What matters is that your explanations make sense to you, guided by the Holy Spirit. If you explained them lately, sorry, i missed them, and i am trying to wade through this line by line.

Repost them if you like, but understand the cognitive dissonance they caused you when they were first presented, how they illustrate a different set of eyes, and witness the eyes that "helped" you to first learn Scripture. Not Rhema? Then who? And btw i have several Rhema pastors as friends, there is nothing wrong with Rhema. We see what we want to see.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Mike, you are making at least somewhat contradictory claims one right behind the other now; have a friend review this last little exchange and get their opinion maybe. And i don't mean to imply that agendas are bad, necessarily, just that you had one, there isn't even anything wrong with it per se, but you were not engaging a Muslim in order to reconcile with him, were you?

You were going to peck away until you found some point of division, right? that, if you were both neighbors just being good neighbors, would never have come up. So congrats, now you have made another enemy of a neighbor--but you "succeeded" and i have failed. That's ok with me--i have no daughters

Shazeep.

Let me explain something I should have noted long ago. My focus and intent in ministry and Christianity is not to find out who is wrong and compare them to me. I do not go around preaching "All muslims are lost." I don't compare religions at all in my ministry. I simply tell people to do what the bible says and believe what it tells us to believe.

This issue of all muslims being lost came in in chatting on this forum. And it was not so much pointing at them, but pointing to the need of the cross. It's hardly my focus. You focused on it with me, so that's where our chats have been. But this sort of discussion is something I never had before with anyone.

That's why I keep saying it's not my beliefs, but the bible. It's not who is as good as me. It's who obeys the word. My absolute love in the word has been around the cross. I preached this past weekend about how to apply the truth of the cross to our problems in life. I said nothing about who does not believe the cross.

You took a note in dialogue with you about muslims, and made it the deal to talk about, not me. And then you assumed I was on a vendetta against muslims. Man alive, I never hardly mentioned the word MUSLIM until this chat began with you.

So, don't think my chats with YOU show the be all and end all of what I focus upon. lol.

I agree that if all my intention was was to point fingers at musims and say, "you're lost," that would be crazy. We're not here to throw dirt, but to give truth. The only point I see in comparisons with them and us is to highlight the importance of the cross. Relating THAT truth is the impetus behind saying anything to YOU about muslims. It's not to show how lost muslims are. It's to show how much we need the cross. And for you to take my chats with YOU and determine what my focus on in Christianity is all about, is to be presumptuous beyond what I can describe.

I tell everyone to check my sermons to see what I focus on. Not forum chats. lol.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, my apologies, i do try to read what you mean and not what you say, but you can hardly blame me for having this preconception here, i think.

When you try to deal with what I mean, and have a preconceived idea, can't you see how that would be very untrustworthy?

How do i take those verses about salvation? I would consider them in the light of all verses about salvation, even the ones that don't fit very well with it, and notice that there are many that deal with human interactions, while the Pauline ones seem to be mostly advanced legal type stuff that i might best apply to my understanding, after accepting the obviously simpler statements about salvation, which common sense tells me can be understood first.

Amen.

But of course Paul was the first thing i heard in OP, and i think i was grappling with predestination on day 2 and i have yet to hear "just love God and your neighbor, and you'll be fine," except by a couple of OG Pents, retired pastors with no signed agenda to adhere to any longer, and of course that was one-on-one, no witnesses. You might be insisting on the 1/10th here, and ignoring the 9/10ths, I'm thinkin.

But what doe the verses in John say about what we're talking about in your estimation? What do you conclude about what's required for salvation in light of those who never believed in the cross?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i think it is wise to reach conclusions for yourself, that being that you need to seek your own salvation, not perpetuate some Pentecostal Inquisition. Or by all means keep doing that if you like, but see that that is what has got you to here.

Yes, sponsoring 100k Muslims would be apparently "hating your life," reckless and foolish; if you are scared for your life. By all means then, keep espousing All Muslims Are Lost, and see what that gets you. I get along with Muslims just fine, guys. I have no daughters, to witness my hypocrisy, and you know what? Your daughters aren't going to come onto a forum and make it obvious, with Scripture, that you don't even believe what you have faith in, in 5-6 different places, you want me to pull them back up?

They are just going to witness that the Muslims among them now seem to be fine, they aren't even out demonstrating against our atrocities, and they are going to absorb "All Muslims are lost, all Catholics are lost, the Pents across the street are lost" from you, whether you even say that out loud or not, because surely you are making your unfounded fears known, wringing your hands about Muslims in the news, etc, and about the time you "prove" to them with Paul how terrible everyone else is, they are going to get interested in Islam, and you are going to be meeting a surprise new inlaw.

You want to lead people to Christ? That's great. Love God and your neighbor. It's 9/10ths of all that law that you are trying to justify your position with, and you aren't doing it, so the insistence on the legal part is just going to ring hollow, even if it is truth. But no, you resist even this statement by Christ, "...is 9/10ths of the law and the prophets," and somehow manage to turn it into a warning against following the law?

shaz - I get along with every one just fine. That does not mean that I cannot believe that they are lost.
But, by the same token it does not mean that I cannot see the results of certain belief systems and not make conclusions from those results.
You are doing the same thing to us that you accuse us of doing to others.
You are making a conclusion about us.
Also, can you give me scripture reference for you "9/10's of the law and the prophets"?
Maybe I am just slow this morning, but that isn't ringing a bell with me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Your eye is the lamp of the body. When your eye is good, your whole body is also full of light. But when it is bad, your body is also full of darkness.

it may be that you have condemned them because when you read the Bible, you find condemnation. But you have been confronted with plenty of Scripture now that suggests otherwise, and we are all going to reap what we sow, Mike.

You're preaching to the choir.

And I have not been confronted with scripture that says otherwise. You just ignore what I say about those scriptures. Which is why I want you to present them instead of just claim you have them and not say which ones they are in order to discuss them adequately.

I have not condemned them. They are of no consequence to me to think that much about taking the effort to condemn them. I merely see what the bible says about the need for the cross which they patently deny even occurred. And you made a mountain out of a mole hill in thinking that is my focus and purpose in life. lol

It came about in a chat as a side thought, and you made it the theme of life!

As I said the word already condemned them. It laid out the fact that without faith in the cross of Jesus we are lost. Simple as that. No more. Nada. That's it, in toto.

When I see the word teach me that importance of the cross, I realize that if I did not believe the cross occurred, I realize I am lost. And that's not just for me, it's for everyone. Is it my goal to point the finger to lost muslims and cry out why they're lost? No. You think it is is, though. My goal is to preach the need of the cross. Sorry if I sounded otherwise.

they aren't important now, Mike. What matters is that your explanations make sense to you, guided by the Holy Spirit. If you explained them lately, sorry, i missed them, and i am trying to wade through this line by line.

Please list the passages. Orderly. And we can go through them.

Repost them if you like, but understand the cognitive dissonance they caused you when they were first presented,

\

Just list them.

how they illustrate a different set of eyes, and witness the eyes that "helped" you to first learn Scripture. Not Rhema? Then who? And btw i have several Rhema pastors as friends, there is nothing wrong with Rhema. We see what we want to see.

Rhema is of no consequence to me. I went to a little basement-of-a-church bible school without accreditation, without theological brain candy, where we were taught to deal with the location of earth where the rubber meets the road, not hundreds of feet above it. No one taught me there the things of the cross that I have dealt with in our chats here. Seriously. In fact, the righteousness and the truths of the cross I have laid out here WERE NOT TAUGHT IN THAT LITTLE SCHOOL. Never. They just weren't. I came into these on my own studies years afterward. The school taught me to pray and fast and seek God more than ANYTHING. And once that became part of me, the studies on my own came later.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Mike, you are making at least somewhat contradictory claims one right behind the other now; have a friend review this last little exchange and get their opinion maybe. And i don't mean to imply that agendas are bad, necessarily, just that you had one, there isn't even anything wrong with it per se, but you were not engaging a Muslim in order to reconcile with him, were you?

You were going to peck away until you found some point of division, right? that, if you were both neighbors just being good neighbors, would never have come up. So congrats, now you have made another enemy of a neighbor--but you "succeeded" and i have failed. That's ok with me--i have no daughters

You really imagine things way too much. Let me get detailed about it, but you;ll likely throw it away as you have my other explanations. Well, others are reading, too, so here goes.

You told me it is hateful to say ALL ____ ARE LOST.You magnified Muslims and their faith and listed interaction with them. So, I wanted to KNOW FOR MYSELF if what you claim about ME and limited to ME was what they did or did not do as Muslims. So, I checked. I know what the Koran says about the SON OF GOD belief being damnable, while the bible clearly proposes it. So I presented it to the muslim and asked what that meant.

He said about me what you claim I said about them. I am lost.

I wanted to know if they do what you claim we should not do.

I found out.

Did God allow that to occur to trip me up like writing a bible that deceives people like you claim? No, God is not evil, Shazeep, to do that sort of thing. Wherever you got that impression is beyond me.

That is some weird concept of the bible. Dark even. Similar to you saying we cannot say we can KNOW we are saved in this present moment of life and existence, and I show you three verses where Paul said WE CAN KNOW, and pass it off and say God put them there to trip me up. lol. What if God put them there because they are true? What if you were wrong and these scriptures are there to help you know that we CAN know if we are saved now or not?

God forbid you were wrong about not knowing we are saved! So, stop saying God put verses there to trip people up just because they contradict your belief and show your belief to be wrong. Man, you can never be wrong with tat attitude! You say something the bible contradicts, and you claim you're still right and the bible had that there by God's intention to trip people up who are wrong. Riiiiiiiiight. And you cannot see how self serving that is?

[shazeep]

What do you conclude about what's required for salvation in light of those who never believed in the cross?

i conclude that they better be seeking their own salvation, and i better be manifesting life, more abundantly and love your neighbor to them first and foremost if i claim to be following Christ. But if i say that the Pents across the street have some splinter in their eye, and i can't even get along with them spiritually, then all muslims are lost just becomes another symptom, like half of the congregation being divorced or whatever, troubling enough on its own.

And stating that you just believe all muslims are lost because the Bible says so is denying that you are in lock-step with the state who is drone bombing them, even if you would never, what, preach it or whatever, like this belief of yours would not manifest in...well, what you have now. I have no sons, to turn into Christian Patriots to feed Molech, and "defend" cheap oil and a fake dollar while millions suffer and die, Mike. I have no daughters, to do what i most fear, while i argue that my private thoughts are inconsequential.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - I get along with every one just fine. That does not mean that I cannot believe that they are lost.

see that perhaps your eye has been trained into this perception, and contrasting this belief with one who has picked up their cross, and what their eyes see, might suggest a different view. You don't believe they are lost because your child ran to you with some horror story; you believe they are lost because some guys with ties "helped" you to understand the bible.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

But, by the same token it does not mean that I cannot see the results of certain belief systems and not make conclusions from those results.

then see that you see from a point of view, nothing wrong with that, and others have a point of view, too, that is equally valid; until you believe they are lost, of course, that is just a way to invalidate them, and then, with your new eyes, see that one pov has it that your belief system has set the world on fire, and your belief system seems to be in lock-step with mercenaries protecting cheap oil and enforcing a fake dollar on everyone, but you have no personal complaints against local Muslims at all, for the overwhelming part. So by all means, make some conclusions, but see that we reach conclusions based upon self interest, and we fall in with others who accept our conclusions, and screen out anyone who has a different conclusion, right?

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You are doing the same thing to us that you accuse us of doing to others.
You are making a conclusion about us.

well, Judge not, lest you be judged, and the Bible makes this conclusion, not me, and if the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it, etc, but see that when you hold "They are all lost" in your heart, you are going to manifest this as a nation, because it is those who are called by His Name that determines these directions, God pays no attention to "the sea" of people who aren't even trying. If you sow "they are all lost" in your collective mind you are going to reap "they are all lost," however that manifests, so don't be surprised when you get Trump as potus and your daughters marrying Muslims. I agree; i am no good at this. I am a hypocrite, not a pastor. All i can ask is that you forgive me, because i am no better than anyone else, and likely the least qualified to be holding up any mirrors.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Also, can you give me scripture reference for you "9/10's of the law and the prophets"?
Maybe I am just slow this morning, but that isn't ringing a bell with me.

sorry, that one never searches very well, a corollary verse is below.













yes, i am making some conclusions, but i hope you see that the alternative is to run, and we have lost some great posters since i have been here. Judge not, and you won't be judged, perhaps. You can believe they are lost if you like, we read that most people are, almost everyone, and i can then believe you are lost..or we can change our beliefs, and stop looking for how they differ from us, and start dwelling on how they are the same, and perhaps not so damned to perdition as we believed. and I'm talking about the Pentecostals in that other sect across the street, not Muslims on the other side of the planet, where all our bases are.

I would discuss Catholics some more, but we have already had our wars with them, right? Yet they are still here, stronger than ever, just like Muslims who we have been trying to strong-arm into our belief system for a thousand years, why oh why doesn't God let us help Him? Gee God, if they are lost, and i can prove it with Scripture, then what is the problem? Wadr the problem might be that "9/10ths of the law and the prophets" does not ring any bells--and please take that in the spirit intended--so we have no grasp of the simple things, but we are sure practically everyone else is lost based upon the harder things?

37He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.ah,ai 38This is the greatest and most importantaj command. 39The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.ak,al 40All the Law and the Prophets dependam on these two commands

here it is "all," elsewhere Christ stated it as "9/10ths," but that doesn't search very well, ya. I usually have to search it in google, strangely, and not a Bible engine, and i can't even find it myself today, so there ya go

Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

see that you do not owe anyone salvation; you owe them love. God is not ever going to ask you why you did not pin someone in a corner and ask them if they knew Jesus as their Lord and Saviour; He is going to ask why you did not love them.

[aegsm76]

shaz - you are given scripture after scripture, yet you choose to ignore them and focus on your "worldview".
Amazing how you "know" how I "developed" my theology, that I blindly follow what I was taught.
Yet you ignore scripture.
Maybe it is just me, but there seems to be a thread of superiority in your post. Such as, "all of you are blindly following what you were taught, but I have been enlightened."

Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - you are given scripture after scripture, yet you choose to ignore them and focus on your "worldview".
Amazing how you "know" how I "developed" my theology, that I blindly follow what I was taught.
Yet you ignore scripture.
Maybe it is just me, but there seems to be a thread of superiority in your post. Such as, "all of you are blindly following what you were taught, but I have been enlightened."

Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

i think maybe a certain amount of this is inevitable, and yes i am not as humble as i should be, but to say that i am ignoring Scripture is hardly fair; i am just ignoring your Scripture, wadr, and presenting other Scripture that seems to be at odds with yours. Imo if you believe what the rest of the country believes, and cannot witness any Muslim atrocities against you, then let that speak for itself, i don't even need to comment.

But it should be apparent that you would not be open to anyone you believe to be lost, and inescapable that you will reap what you sow, so you might contemplate those, and understand i have no interest in winning an argument here, or ignoring any Scripture. If you are called to be a servant but you are acting like a master, how might someone point this out without causing offense?

How might "everyone who doesn't believe like me is lost" possibly be hurting you? Never mind that it has not served you to well, iow, seek the possible damage for yourself, and don't listen to me. And if you find none, then so be it; we will see what we will see. Peace to you.