They have no shame

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Does anybody have a biblical answer to these three questions?

The better question is, how does a finance system that was necessitated by the existence of a priesthood of the Old Covenant have any bearing on us since that covenant was abolished along with the priesthood it necessitated?

BTW, God was not accusing the Jewish citizens of not paying their tithes. The robbing was done by the priesthood on tithes that had already been paid.

Who is being addressed in Malachi 3:8-10? Is it the people as the tithing teachers say, or is it the priests?

We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context. By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed at that point.

Malachi 1:6 (KJV)
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3 continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment….."

In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Malachi chapter 1 verse 14 (NIV) reads:
14 "Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord.

Remember we learned that in Numbers chapter 18, God said one tenth of the tithe was to be given to the priests for an offering to The Lord. Malachi 1:14 shows that the priests gave the worst of the tithe to God instead of the best. Thus we have the robbing God of offerings mentioned in Malachi chapter 3 verse 8.

Now let's look at Nehemiah chapter 13 verse 10 (NIV):
10 I also learned that the portions assigned to the Levites had not been given to them, and that all the Levites and singers responsible for the service had gone back to their own fields.

This verse is telling us that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe; therefore, they had no food to eat at the temple, and they went back to their own fields. We must interpret this verse in this way because nowhere does it say that the priests had also left the temple. The priests had the food. Read chapter 13 of Nehemiah to get the complete picture.

So Malachi 1:14 shows the priests robbed God of the offerings, and Nehemiah 13:10 shows the priests robbed God of the tithes.

Next, in Malachi 3:10 God says to bring all the tithes to the storehouse. The people took the tithes to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities, not to the temple. The Levites took the required food from the tithes to the temple when it was their turn to serve. Only those tithes ever made it to the temple. The priests then took those tithes to the storehouse. It only makes sense if God is speaking to the priests in this verse.

Therefore, we believe that the evidence shows that Malachi 3:8-10 is being addressed to the priests, not the people.

http://tithing101.com/Part1/robbing.htm

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

In Jesus day it seems as though in the court of women there was also a treasury.

The treasury didn't hold livestock, the treasury didn't hold animals, or clothes or food.

The treasury held money.

If you know anything about the temple, you would know this.

Apparently the type of tithes and offering monetarily changed and became what it had Eversince God had Solomon build the temple.

Matthew 12:31
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Come on Esaias,

Temple worship of tithes and offering of money existed in Malachi's day.

Just like it existed in the closing 3 1/2 years of the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by Originalist

The better question is, how does a finance system that was necessitated by the existence of a priesthood of the Old Covenant have any bearing on us since that covenant was abolished along with the priesthood it necessitated?

BTW, God was not accusing the Jewish citizens of not paying their tithes. The robbing as done by the priesthood on tithes that had already been paid

Brother everyone was required to tithe.

Originalist have you not read this?

1Corinthians 9:9-14
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

[J.A. Perez]

1 Corinthians 9:9-14

That is a monetary provision for the ministry in the New Testament.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

1 Corinthians 9:9-14

That is a monetary provision for the ministry in the New Testament.

You avoided my question with a straw man argument and ignored the rest of my post.

Nobody is denying that I Corinthians 9:9-14 is talking about supporting ministers. Thus your comment is invalid. So again I ask, how does Malachi effect us in any way? We are under a completely different covenant with a different priesthood all together. Furthermore, why do you ignore the other commands on tithing like....

Deut. 14:22-29

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Why do you have no concern on making the above fit into our modern tithing teaching?


And why did you not comment on the answer I gave to your question concerning Malachi as to whom he was addressing? Who was robbing God? The Levites were getting ripped off by the Priests and God considered that to be stealing from HIM. So if you want to insist that Malachi is relevant to the church, then YOU had better stop stealing from the many Levite equivalents in your congregation. Start doling them tithes out, priest.

[shag]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Brother everyone was required to tithe.

Originalist have you not read this?

1Corinthians 9:9-14
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

Occupations such as potters, silversmiths, tent makers, jailers, scribes, iron smiths, goldsmiths, bankers, laundrymen, merchants, fishermen, miners, all tithed, according to the scriptures...That is your position, correct?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by shag

Potters, silversmiths, tent makers, jailers, scribes, iron smiths, goldsmiths, bankers, laundrymen, merchants, fishermen, miners, all were required to tithe, according to the scriptures...That is your position, correct?

I forgot to comment on that. If he is using the treasury offering mentioned in Matthew to justify his silly statement, he should resign.

[shag]

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;





Flame & Perez, you ever read this verse aloud to your widows & fatherless when you call for tithe?

I mean, since the bible doesn't record the apostles explaining its transfer anywhere in the NT to the engraftment Gentiles...surely you throw this in the mix somewhere

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

1 Corinthians 9:9-14

That is a monetary provision for the ministry in the New Testament.

No one is saying that is not a monetary provision.

What we ARE saying is that it DOES NOT SAY 10% mandatory, now does it?

Bro JA, the 10% mandatory tithe as it is known in churches today is NOT found in the NT.

Giving is. No one is arguing against that.

You keep trying to insist that we against the 10% tithe are not givers. That is simply not true. When you give as the Lord prospers you, that means the more the Lord blesses, the more you are able to give. The rich man should give more, since he has been blessed with more. The poor give as they can, and God will bless that too.

GIVING is embedded in NT teaching. 10% TITHING is not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When did head-counting determine what doctrine is correct?

When people can't use the Bible to prove their position?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

A much more thorough answer, with which I agree.

The question then becomes, what does Paul mean when he writes about "they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel"?

- Is he meaning every saint in the church who evangelizes a soul?

- Does he mean a stationery pastor who preaches and teaches from a pulpit on a weekly or semi-weekly basis?

- Or does he refer to itinerant evangelists and apostles like himself and Barnabas (1 Corinthians 9:1-6), who have left EVERYTHING behind (the point I keep making!) in order to be slaves to Jesus Christ and God the Father?

A servant of the Gospel who has left EVERYTHING behind has the right to financial remuneration, to cover the costs of those things with which Paul wrote he should be content, which namely, are food and clothing (and an allusion to travel expenses).

And while such servants have the right (not to a tithe of a church's collective income to pay for a house and a car and a boat and a fill in the blank) they could, as Paul, forego that right and work with their own hands to be an example, so the ministry be not coveted.

There are undoubtedly some called of the Lord men doing exactly what I've just described. But many are the men in pulpits who teach and preach several times a month, counsel some more, pray and study, and maybe visit the sick or imprisoned, and they expect a big time salary for it at the end of the day, and they demand the church tithe to make sure they get that salary (not to mention pay for the building and pulpit that allows them to minister to earn that check).

These are things men of God are called to do, with or without any financial help from anyone. Millions of so-called "lay ministers" do just what I wrote above, without seeing a dime from anyone, from any portion of the tithe in their church, and they do it faithfully, because God and their calling demand it of them. Woe to them, right?

And many are the one who threaten to resign and not minister to anyone if the tithes decrease and they become forced to take a secular job.

No way, no how is that what Paul intended for anyone, then or now, to understand, when he wrote 1 Corinthians 9. Paul did secular work as a leather worker, and ministered and evangelized at night, pulling double duty for years, without complaint.

And yet all sorts of full time ministers who do no secular work can't compete (not that they should try/take my meaning in context) with even barely a hint of what Paul and Barnabas, and later, Paul and Silas were able to accomplish, and they worked full time secular jobs to provide for themselves and their team of fellow-laborers in the Gospel!

Yet, in 1st Corinthians 9 we have no indication that Paul is telling the wealthy Corinthians that the ministers needed to work secular jobs to support themselves. It is clear that they which preached the Gospel were to live of the Gospel. It was an order. When Peter said to the rest of the apostles that he was going back to fishing (his secular work) John 21:3. Jesus asks Peter to first drag the net (which wasn't broken as it was in Luke 5:6) then after Jesus provides them breakfast, He asks Peter lovest thou me more than these? It was the 153 fish which they just caught after fishing all night and catching nothing (same as when they first met Jesus) Peter tells Jesus that he did love Him as a friend, and Jesus tells Peter concerning the job that Jesus called Peter to do fishers of men Luke 5:10, Jesus tells Peter that he needed to feed His lambs. Jesus called His apostles out of secular work, and into full time ministry. The reason why they called deacons to serve tables while the apostles prayed and studied the scrolls. We have one time Paul is working with Aquila and Priscilla, and everyone thinks he was burning the candle at both ends while he was later chained between two Roman soldiers?

1st Corinthian 9 is showing the support of the ministry, they fed the flock spiritual things and were reaping the physical 1 Corinthians 9:11, Galatians 6:6.