You Can Fake It All

[KeptByTheWord]

I realize that it does get old to hear that the same issues that were involved in discussion 10 or even 15 years ago and many of these same issues are still being discussed today. Why do you think that is?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I realize that it does get old to hear that the same issues that were involved in discussion 10 or even 15 years ago and many of these same issues are still being discussed today. Why do you think that is?

Some people can't let go.

I had a friend whose wife left him. If we got together 10 times a week, then 10 times I heard over and over and over about the topic. It was repeated. Same stuff over and over, day after day, week after week.

He needed to get professional help. It's deep down inside and hasn't been healed

Like I said I have friends that left the UPC. They never talk about it. They've moved on

But again, the issue is not whether they let go or want to talk about it...it's how and where.

Like I said, go to a baptist board. They EAT that stuff up! They will make you king or queen for the day if you trash Pentecostals

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Some people can't let go.

I had a friend whose wife left him. If we got together 10 times a week, then 10 times I heard over and over and over about the topic. It was repeated. Same stuff over and over, day after day, week after week.

He needed to get professional help. It's deep down inside and hasn't been healed

Like I said I have friends that left the UPC. They never talk about it. They've moved on

But again, the issue is not whether they let go or want to talk about it...it's how and where.

Like I said, go to a baptist board. They EAT that stuff up! They will make you king or queen for the day if you trash Pentecostals

On the Baptist board they don't care for ANY type of Pentecostals but they sure do love pot-lucks.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by ILG

Do you think it is any different in any other culture? My feeling is that people are human and they hide their shortcomings whether those shortcomings are real or fabricated by their society.

This goes back to Adam and Eve hiding in the garden because they were naked. You are right, it IS our instinct to hide our weaknesses or the things we are ashamed of.

Some of you, the ones that go all the back to Faithchild Forum, might remember, how I had this revelation, that God see's everything, and therefore it is foolish to worry about what man sees.

So I opened myself up, laid myself bare, and did my best to become completely transparent. Did I shock people, sometimes. Did they shake their heads at me? Worry about the state of my soul? probably.

But for the most part, rather than the vitriol and judgment that I expected, I got support, friendship and admiration.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I believe some people fake tongues or are induced to fake tongues.

My Ex-husband faked the Holy Ghost. He had Asperger's and they tend to not feel emotions quite the same way, and therefore, get used to mimicking facial expressions and tone of voice. He knew what they wanted of him at the altar, so he handled that the same way. To be honest, I don't know if he ever got the real thing, tongues or not, but I hope so.

[ILG]

This goes back to Adam and Eve hiding in the garden because they were naked. You are right, it IS our instinct to hide our weaknesses or the things we are ashamed of.

Some of you, the ones that go all the back to Faithchild Forum, might remember, how I had this revelation, that God see's everything, and therefore it is foolish to worry about what man sees.

So I opened myself up, laid myself bare, and did my best to become completely transparent. Did I shock people, sometimes. Did they shake their heads at me? Worry about the state of my soul? probably.

But for the most part, rather than the vitriol and judgment that I expected, I got support, friendship and admiration.

Mich, I want you to know how much I appreciated your transparency back then. It was so refreshing. I almost lived vicariously through your transparency. It meant that much to me. Because of emotional and personal reasons, I did not tell my story except one time on here. After I told my story my shoulders and neck and back were sore for two days, it took that much out of me. It was a relief though because after that, most people stopped beating up on me and realized I needed to talk and heal. Most people realized I had a real story to tell. Most people do care when they have some understanding of your situation.

My Ex-husband faked the Holy Ghost. He had Asperger's and they tend to not feel emotions quite the same way, and therefore, get used to mimicking facial expressions and tone of voice. He knew what they wanted of him at the altar, so he handled that the same way. To be honest, I don't know if he ever got the real thing, tongues or not, but I hope so.

So the things that are used to measure a person's spirituality can be faked. I don't think it has ever been God's will to measure each other's spirituality as a checklist. Sorry for your experience...

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I realize that it does get old to hear that the same issues that were involved in discussion 10 or even 15 years ago and many of these same issues are still being discussed today. Why do you think that is?

I think it is that way because the people who bring up problems often get pointed out as BEING the problem, when in reality that isn't the case at all. So the root issues never get addressed because they are silenced.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think it is that way because the people who bring up problems often get pointed out as BEING the problem, when in reality that isn't the case at all. So the root issues never get addressed because they are silenced.

Right, that was my point in asking the question, why do you think it is? The reason is, even with all the discussion that has gone on, not much has changed. That is why the discussion will continue to go on, as old as it sounds.

I agree with Mich that it is human nature to wear a mask, and pretend to the world that all is okay, and this is part of the problem. It is too easy to put on a mask, and pretend that you are doing fine, when you're not. Mask-wearing Christians are generally what you find when you enter a church building. If everyone's thoughts, sins, and deeds were on public display, how horrifying would that be?

So, instead, it is our nature, even as Adam and Eve covered up in the garden, to cover up our mistakes, failures, and sins by putting on a good show. This is not something that just happens in one particular organization or place, but it is what we as human beings do.

Being transparent, open, and acknowledging the depths of depravity in your own flesh is not an easy thing to do, but there is healing in being transparent, open, and dealing with the problems being covered up.

I do not believe it was ever the intention of the Lord Jesus for us to wear masks, cover up, and pretend all is okay, when it is not. He came to rip those off, even as the veil of the temple was torn to reveal the inner workings of the temple. Jesus came to set us free from the bondage of our very human nature.

Our spirituality, by the standard of Christ, was never to be measured by a law, but by our fruit, and our love. Only God can discern, and know our hearts, but our fruit is telling of what dwells in our heart. Measuring someone by how well they follow a law is useless in Jesus Christ, because it is the fruit that He measures us by. That is why the Pharisees hated Jesus, and killed Him, because he brought change to the way they had always done things... they lived the law, covered up with their holy "mask" yet their hearts were still wicked. Today, the same spirit is alive and well, because it really is human nature to be Pharisee-like.

Jesus came and brought in a new way of living, and measuring, and it involved death to flesh, in order for life to spring forth. Human nature though, resists that kind of death, choosing instead to surround itself with laws as if those laws or standards could somehow make them free from their sinful human nature.

The only way to find freedom, and to break free from the bondage of the law, and the bondage of wearing a mask to cover up the depravity hidden in your flesh, is to turn to Jesus, and allow His love to transform your life in such a way that the fruit being produced in your life are fruits of love, kindness, joy, peace, and so on.

Many choose the mask because it means they can look good, without a real inward change. But if anyone desires a real change, from the inside out... Jesus is the only answer that will bring complete healing and deliverance from the nature of our flesh that has us in bondage. "Whom the Son has set free, is free indeed."

[ILG]

Right, that was my point in asking the question, why do you think it is? The reason is, even with all the discussion that has gone on, not much has changed. That is why the discussion will continue to go on, as old as it sounds.

The first step in dealing with the fact that the discussions are still ongoing is letting people speak and not silencing them. Silencing people is like putting up a dam where water is running with no outlet. At some point, the dam breaks. How much better to say "Hey there is water running here, we can put up a dam and harness the power it generates". Much smarter and more productive.

I agree with Mich that it is human nature to wear a mask, and pretend to the world that all is okay, and this is part of the problem. It is too easy to put on a mask, and pretend that you are doing fine, when you're not. Mask-wearing Christians are generally what you find when you enter a church building. If everyone's thoughts, sins, and deeds were on public display, how horrifying would that be?

I think transparency and openness is what heals. So maybe not on complete public display but an acceptance that it is reality and fact would be good and an openness and willingness to talk about issues.

So, instead, it is our nature, even as Adam and Eve covered up in the garden, to cover up our mistakes, failures, and sins by putting on a good show. This is not something that just happens in one particular organization or place, but it is what we as human beings do.

Yes, we all do. I have done it too. Part of my reason for talking about these things is to be open and honest about my own failings in the past.

Being transparent, open, and acknowledging the depths of depravity in your own flesh is not an easy thing to do, but there is healing in being transparent, open, and dealing with the problems being covered up.

LOL! Right!

I do not believe it was ever the intention of the Lord Jesus for us to wear masks, cover up, and pretend all is okay, when it is not. He came to rip those off, even as the veil of the temple was torn to reveal the inner workings of the temple. Jesus came to set us free from the bondage of our very human nature.

Yes.

Our spirituality, by the standard of Christ, was never to be measured by a law, but by our fruit, and our love. Only God can discern, and know our hearts, but our fruit is telling of what dwells in our heart. Measuring someone by how well they follow a law is useless in Jesus Christ, because it is the fruit that He measures us by. That is why the Pharisees hated Jesus, and killed Him, because he brought change to the way they had always done things... they lived the law, covered up with their holy "mask" yet their hearts were still wicked. Today, the same spirit is alive and well, because it really is human nature to be Pharisee-like.

Yes, laws vs fruit. Anyone can fake a law, but you can't fake good fruit too easily. Things have a tendency to show through.

The only way to find freedom, and to break free from the bondage of the law, and the bondage of wearing a mask to cover up the depravity hidden in your flesh, is to turn to Jesus, and allow His love to transform your life in such a way that the fruit being produced in your life are fruits of love, kindness, joy, peace, and so on.

And be open and talk about things. It's strange when people hammer on about how people just want to UPC bash. The thing is, the only reason we can even find fault in the organization is that we first found fault in ourselves and in how we were in error by measuring people by laws and rules. I did this. I was at fault. I was wrong.

Many choose the mask because it means they can look good, without a real inward change. But if anyone desires a real change, from the inside out... Jesus is the only answer that will bring complete healing and deliverance from the nature of our flesh that has us in bondage. "Whom the Son has set free, is free indeed."

Free indeed!

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think it is that way because the people who bring up problems often get pointed out as BEING the problem, when in reality that isn't the case at all. So the root issues never get addressed because they are silenced.

I think it could be a conflict in their spirit with man made doctrines and traditions and "church culture" vs the Spirit of God that is trying to lead them in a direction He would have them go.I think this can cause some agitation and frustration because some things are so rooted and hard to break out of.Jesus spoke to Saul and said "Its hard for thee to kick against the pricks." So Jesus was doing some pricking and Saul was lashing out and reacting against it.Ive found that when I am most defensive about something...that is when there are deeper issues that need to be dealt with......Show me someone that is overly emotional and reactive when their beliefs are challenged and Ill show you someone that has some unconscious unbelief or insecurity.

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Originally Posted by ILG

It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.

Repentance is easy to fake. Just go to the altar and look sorrowful.

Baptism. Just do it.

Tongues? I have heard lots of fake tongues in my life. Just sound like everybody else.

What many consider proof of God in your life, standards, are easy to fake, just follow the list.

Who has motive to fake salvation? All those who are being or have been pressured by wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, kids and friends to "get saved".

In a culture that greatly pressures people to get "saved" or go to hell and constantly measures who is "in" and who is "out", there is great pressure on people to "get saved" to get people off their back. They might not even know they are faking because they don't even know what the real experience is. Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula. The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out".

The UPC taught me they were different. But they are not. Some in the UPC have faith and some do not. There is no formula for salvation to prove to another you are saved, no way to say "You are in and you are out".

Preach it! Do you bear fruits? There are going to be a lot of long hair having, no pants wearing, no tv watching people in hell. There are also going to be some who on earth didnt fit the supposed saved mold in heaven.