Sit Down and Behave Yourself!

[kingdomapostle]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Marginalized again.

Personally I don't care that we disagree on certain issues nor am I going to conform for the sake of peer pressure.

But the fact remains that from MY Perspective it's just as much Trinitarians who attack other groups, other than their own belief systems, and marginalizes them

I think its according to experience. Remember we talked about this a while back. I think its safe to say that both sides have done their share of bashing one another. Let's turn over a new leaf here .

Tip toes back out of this discussion.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

If you are an apostolic minister and don't know we got big problems.

Not "we", you mean "YOU". You are not Apostolic. BTW this is another example of sweeping generalizatoins

1) Justification by faith through grace.

This get's preached a LOT at my church and yes we are Apostolic

2) Water and spirit new birth being the Acts 2:38 formula.

Apostolics are not the only group to have come to this theological conclusion. Before the reformation this was pretty much the only view and at the beginning of the reformation men like Luther still believed water baptism was essential to being saved. And they would quote Acts 2:38 just as they would any other scripture.

3) Initial evidence doctrine (you cannot have the holy spirit unless you speak in tongues).

I only have a problem with this when it's in absolute terms. David Bernard on a radio debate admitted a person can be saved and not have spoken in tongues, but said that a person who was genuinely saved and excersizing his faith should at some point have this evidence.

Not all Apostolics believe this either. Some have the same view as the AOG

4) Trinity (this goes back hundreds of years)

Im fine with this.

5) Holiness Standards

Again this is not a view all Apostolics have. And others that do standards don't all treat it as a works based salvation

6) Obedience to a three-step formula as a condition of new birth (repentance, baptism, and holy ghost baptism).

Again not all Apostolics are three steppers. Many more that technically are three steppers are not absolutists..meaning they admit others can come to Christ and be saved without doing A,B and C. But they have to at least A. But that this "three Steps" is the normative Christian procedue. I've talked to Ana-baptists and Greek Orthodox believers that believed baptism was necessary but not absolute that God can save someone without or before being baptize. However if they genuinely do believe they have to obey it

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by kingdomapostle

I think its according to experience. Remember we talked about this a while back. I think its safe to say that both sides have done their share of bashing one another. Let's turn over a new leaf here .

Tip toes back out of this discussion.

My point is, I recognize that, how come they don't?

If you look at the theolog section, most of the posts by me are done in defense of what I believe vs the attacks of those that consider themselves no longer Oneness.

I have friends that left the UPC, and they have moved on. Their focus is on Christ, not on the UPC. You have to wonder

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not "we", you mean "YOU". You are not Apostolic. BTW this is another example of sweeping generalizatoins


This get's preached a LOT at my church and yes we are Apostolic.


Apostolics are not the only group to have come to this theological conclusion. Before the reformation this was pretty much the only view and at the beginning of the reformation men like Luther still believed water baptism was essential to being saved. And they would quote Acts 2:38 just as they would any other scripture.


I only have a problem with this when it's in absolute terms. David Bernard on a radio debate admitted a person can be saved and not have spoken in tongues, but said that a person who was genuinely saved and excersizing his faith should at some point have this evidence.

Not all Apostolics believe this either. Some have the same view as the AOG


Im fine with this.


Again this is not a view all Apostolics have. And others that do standards don't all treat it as a works based salvation


Again not all Apostolics are three steppers. Many more that technically are three steppers are not absolutists..meaning they admit others can come to Christ and be saved without doing A,B and C. But they have to at least A. But that this "three Steps" is the normative Christian procedue. I've talked to Ana-baptists and Greek Orthodox believers that believed baptism was necessary but not absolute that God can save someone without or before being baptize. However if they genuinely do believe they have to obey it

Prax, I am well aware that in practice and everyday christian life most UPC/Apostolics are not absolute about a lot of these things. In fact, I honestly believe that the majority, that is right I said majority, of Apostolics do not believe what they say they believe.

We can bring out all the facts we want but the truth is that the apostolic movement is not just different on one of two issues but is way, way different.

Bernard will never say that a person will go to hell but he will masterfully dance around the issue.

Those issues are what separates Apostolic from mainstream Christians. I am not lumping you in with all apostolics.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

My point is, I recognize that, how come they don't?

If you look at the theolog section, most of the posts by me are done in defense of what I believe vs the attacks of those that consider themselves no longer Oneness.

I have friends that left the UPC, and they have moved on. Their focus is on Christ, not on the UPC. You have to wonder

Whoops, looks like you are lumping everyone who leaves with people who focus on the UPC. Are you attacking me with a false claim?

Really, if it were not for family and this forum I would have no connection with the UPC or apostolics. I guess I have just been away for so long that when I come here it is just mind blowing how people think.

[MarcBee]

Great thread title because it acquires additional irony every day!

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Great thread title because it acquires additional irony every day!

Yep

[scotty]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Prax, I am well aware that in practice and everyday christian life most UPC/Apostolics are not absolute about a lot of these things. In fact, I honestly believe that the majority, that is right I said majority, of Apostolics do not believe what they say they believe.

We can bring out all the facts we want but the truth is that the apostolic movement is not just different on one of two issues but is way, way different.

Bernard will never say that a person will go to hell but he will masterfully dance around the issue.

Those issues are what separates Apostolic from mainstream Christians. I am not lumping you in with all apostolics.

Actually the "truth" your looking for in better words is, most UPC/Apostolics do not believe in the "UPC standards/policies/etc etc" I being one of those, yet I am a UPC/Apostolic. What many Xers dont understand (and I admit I see how it could be hard for most Xers to understand) is that there are quite a lot of UPC pastors who sign the card yet do not fully believe the UPC dogma neither.(of course I will not name names) As a result the UPC has left most of what the pastors preach up to them, thats why "standards" vary from church to church.

As far as the statement that the apostolic movement is seperate and/or different from mainstream christianity... I have no problem with that, I believe scripture calls us to be set apart. I also believe mainstream christianity is who is being talked about in scripture as those who claim to have known, call upon, worshipped God yet are turned away. (Of course this is dependant on what exactly some label as "mainstream christianity")

[kingdomapostle]

Originally Posted by scotty

Actually the "truth" your looking for in better words is, most UPC/Apostolics do not believe in the "UPC standards/policies/etc etc" I being one of those, yet I am a UPC/Apostolic. What many Xers dont understand (and I admit I see how it could be hard for most Xers to understand) is that there are quite a lot of UPC pastors who sign the card yet do not fully believe the UPC dogma neither.(of course I will not name names) As a result the UPC has left most of what the pastors preach up to them, thats why "standards" vary from church to church.

As far as the statement that the apostolic movement is seperate and/or different from mainstream christianity... I have no problem with that, I believe scripture calls us to be set apart. I also believe mainstream christianity is who is being talked about in scripture as those who claim to have known, call upon, worshipped God yet are turned away. (Of course this is dependant on what exactly some label as "mainstream christianity")

I don't even think "mainstream Christianity" is mainstream. What people believe varies from congregation to congregation. Even in organizations where they meet around this time of year for conventions, assemblies...etc. they will worship in the same service and shout off common points of belief, while many of the Pastors still debate "questionable" matters in the leaders meetings. I've seen it so many times. That's when I realized that the UNITY of the Faith we preach does not mean we will always agree on everything.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Whoops, looks like you are lumping everyone who leaves with people who focus on the UPC. Are you attacking me with a false claim?

Really, if it were not for family and this forum I would have no connection with the UPC or apostolics. I guess I have just been away for so long that when I come here it is just mind blowing how people think.

Actually I just got finished saying I knew some people who left and their focus was on Jesus and NOT on the UPC :-)

That would be me pointing out NOT everyone that leaves the UPC is like that