The catching away

[Falla39]

Quote: by easter
There are some who may not be familiar with God's chosen people(Jews) because if you were,you would know the Jews would have no part of a dispensationalism teaching of Jesus Christ.


Romans 2:28,29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[Falla39]

Quote by Mike Blume
THIS IS THE CHURCH! Praise God!

Amen!!!

[easter]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Quote: by easter
There are some who may not be familiar with God's chosen people(Jews) because if you were,you would know the Jews would have no part of a dispensationalism teaching of Jesus Christ.


Romans 2:28,29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes and we understand the circumcision of the heart.
I'm talking about a literal practicing Judaism Jewish person would not accept a teaching of Jesus Christ of any kind.
Believe it or not the entire Bible is not all symbolic,some of it is actuality literal.Of course I am a fundamentalist.

[easter]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. We are grafted in to the olive tree and it was mercy that did it. And Romans 11 goes on to say that BY OUR MERCY shall the Jews return to Him again. So in the end everyone will have been saved by mercy! Not lineage of the flesh.



This is where I strongly disagree with you. We do not have to get heated over it, but I really disagree with this statement. Let me explain why.

People who say this believe Ro 11:25-26 is teaching that idea. After the fullness of the Gentiles are come in, they believe this is the rapture. But it is isn't! Most scholars through the centuries, until 1830 when Dispensationalism was created, believed this passage actually meant that there will be a revival of gentiles and then through all those gentiles in the church, there will be a concerted effort to reach Israel, and there will be a revival of Jews getting saved. It is not that the rapture shall occur and then God turns to Israel. No.

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in IS NOT THE RAPTURE.

Read what Paul already said about Jews being lost and saved.

Romans 11:14-15 KJV If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

He said he was working to cause the Jews to be jealous of God's blessings on the gentiles so they might be saved. Verse 15 says they will be saved because of the efforts Paul made according to verse 14. Now, if the rapture had to occur before Jews could be saved, Paul would nto be provoking Jews to emulation in order for them to return to God! So the rpature has nothing to do with this.

And, like I said before, if the rapture is going to occur and then God shall turn to the Jews, then Paul's words in Romans 9 should have been replaced with something like, "With all the Jews lost today, it might seem like God's Promises to them are unfulfilled. But they are not unfulfilled! There will be a rapture of the gentile church, and the Lord shall then turn to the Jews!"

But that is not what Paul said. What he actually said was this: "With all the Jews lost today, it might seem like God's Promises to them are unfulfilled. But they are not unfulfilled! The "Israel" that God sees is not the "Israel" some people might think. Not all the people we think are Israel is Israel in God's eyes. The children counted for the seed are the children of promise. Just because someone is born by flesh into Israel does not mean God considers them to be Israel. The only Israelites whom God considers to be Israel are those BORN AGAIN in the church."

The church IS NOT GENTILE. Pretrib teaches that th4e church is gentile, and after the Gentile church is removed, then God shall go back to Israel. No. Ephesians says the CHURCH is GENTILE AND JEW in one body. No ifs, ands or buts.

Ephesians 2:14-18 KJV For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

If the church is for Jew and Gentile, why does God have to remove the church in order to save the Jews? No, Romans 11:25-26 is not teaching a rapture shall occur in order for God to turn back to Israel.



THAT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

John 3:5 KJV Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 28:30-31 KJV And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, (31) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

That is the HOPE OF ISRAEL, not a millennium.



Dispensationalism is error, I think. You must be trying to say the Jews have no part in THIS dispensation of Grace. But That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. God's CHOSEN PEOPLE are THE CHURCH now, not Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 KJV But ye (THE CHURCH) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

IT USED TO BE ISRAEL:

Exodus 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Jesus siad the KINGDOM was taken from them and He never said it would go back.

Matthew 21:43 KJV Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It is severe error to say the Jews and Israel have no part in God's plan for the church, since Ephesians says the CHURCH IS CREATED FOR JEW AND GENTILE both. God tore down the middle wall of partition. And the bible says that if we tear down the things we destroyed, we make ourselves transgressors. God is not going to be a transgressor and build the wall of partition that he destroyed.



On the contrary! He wants people to think he is not bound, since the christians won't realize they CAN SPOIL HIM! You cannot spoil a strong man unless you first bind Him. Jesus was right! When Paul said the devil is spoiled that means he must already be bound!



The gentiles were grafted into the same tree Israel was on, but Israel was mostly broken off. Paul and James and John, etc., stayed on the tree. Israel has to come back to the same tree we're on. We're not going top taken off the tree and moved to heaven before Israel is grafted on. No. Israel needs to come to the same tree we're on while we're on it!



Please tell that to William Chalfant, UPC author and teacher, because He told me that Jesus is only PRIEST right now, and will not sit on the throne of David til the millennium. I am glad you disagree with him!



Sorry, it is not becuase I do nto like disp teaching that I call it something the Pharises believed. The pharisees literally believed in a physical kingdom. That is fact. And Disp teaches the same thing. I deny it totally. If I had only said this because I disagree with Disp., then you would be correct. But it is not based upon dislike. It is based upon fact of what Pharisees believed.



NOw, you ar edoing the thing you dislike. Where does the Bible say a Pharisee is someone who does not understand New Jerusalem? That sounds more like your disagreement with me makles you say I believe like a Pharisee, which is the very thing you just said you hated in seeing people do.

Sorry, I believe Heb 12:22 says we are already come to heavenly Jerusalem. The bride is a CHURCH, not a set of buildings.



You do not know what I believe about this. There IS a Jerusalem where God's throne is. THE CHURCH!



THIS IS THE CHURCH! Praise God!

I never said the fullness of the gentiles was the rapture.
I thought you said you use to be pretrib?Did you preach this because some statements you have made leaves me to believe you did not have a good understanding of pretrib.
For starters people who believe in pretrib don't believe Jesus is just a priest as you stated in one of your post.
The Bride of Christ is what's raptured out(THE CHURCH) the fullness of the gentiles has nothing to do with the catching away.Of course it has something to do with the falling away.
Zechariah 2:9-12 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them.Then you will know that the Lord almighty has sent me.(10)Shout and be glad,O daughter of Zion.For I am coming,and I WILL LIVE AMONG YOU,DECLARES THE LORD.(11) Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people.I WILL LIVE AMONG YOU AND YOU WILL KNOW THAT THE LORD ALMIGHTY HAS SENT ME TO YOU.(12) The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the Holy land and will again CHOOSE JERUSALEM.
So yes bro.Blume he will turn his eyes back to Israel

[easter]

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,Go and measure the temple of God and the alter,and count the worshipers there.(2) But exclude the outer court,do not measure it,BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE GENTILES.They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.(3) And I will give power to my two witnesses,and they will prophesy for 1,260 days,clothed in sack cloth.
bro Blume how do the two witnesses fit into how you believe?
Revelation 11:6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying;and they have power to turn water into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plagues as often as they want.
Now I included Revelation 11:6 just in case you think the two witnesses are symbolic and verse 6 plainly states these are two men.
Now when did these fellows show up?

Revelation 11:8 their bodies will lie in the street of the great city,which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt,where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:11 But after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them and they stood on their feet and terror struck those who saw them.
So when did this happen already?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

I never said the fullness of the gentiles was the rapture.
I thought you said you use to be pretrib?Did you preach this because some statements you have made leaves me to believe you did not have a good understanding of pretrib.

Perhaps you do not have a good understanding of it. I spoke to UPC teachers Wm Chalfant and Michael Wiltcher who both agree the fullness of the Gentiles come in refers to the end of the church age when no more Gentiles shall be saved, and the rapture occurs.

Look at theese pretrib teachers:

http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/...ennialism.html

Note the text doesn't say the end of time, but the end of the times of the Gentiles. See also Romans 11:25. There is time past the time of the Gentiles. It is "the day of the Lord," the time of the great tribulation and the millennial age. And we are almost there. The Jews again rule all of Jerusalem except the temple mount which is still in the hands of the gentiles. Jerusalem has become a cup of trebling to the whole world today (Zec 12:2.) We are almost LITERALLY to
Luke 21:24.

----------------

During the 'Age of Grace' which is also known as the 'Church Age' until the rapture happens the Jews have been living in a 'state of hardening' of the heart and mind induced by God so that they can not believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah. This is 'pre-rapture' hardening, but 'post-rapture' after the "full number of Gentiles has come in" God will turn his attention to saving a remnant of the Jews by Grace. Then, also post-rapture, God will send a powerful delusion to the unbelieving Gentiles so that they will be condemned. The Jews will get a 'second chance' for salvation post-rapture, but not the unbelieving Gentiles.

PRE-RAPTURE: ( God gives the Jews a spirit of stupor )

Romans 11:2
"God did not reject his people, whom He foreknew.
Romans 11:4
"I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. So to, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."
Romans 11:7
"The others were hardened, as it is written: GOD GAVE THEM ( non-believing Jews ) a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could NOT see and ears so that they could NOT hear, to this very day."
Romans 11:13
"I am talking to you, Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry.

POST-RAPTURE: ( God sends the unbelieving Gentiles a powerful delusion)

----------------------

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug...ucew831-2.htm:
Romans 11:25
"Israel has experienced a hardening in part UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

--------------------------

http://www.biblicaladvancedbasics.com/pdf/Rapture.pdf:
The condition, where God will remove the blindness in part, is that “the fulness (Gr,
pleroma: completion) of the Gentiles be come in.” Pleroma suggests that as Gentiles
are being added to the body of Christ, there is a point in which the completion of this
process will arrive. I take this to mean the full complement or number of Gentiles
becoming saved. Since no one but God knows how many more it will take or how long it
will take, the rapture could happen at any moment.

Once this fulness is achieved and the rapture occurs, God will work to save all Israel by first of all removing the blindness.

For starters people who believe in pretrib don't believe Jesus is just a priest as you stated in one of your post.

I guess pretrib folks do not agree with each other. Wm Chalfant, author and pastor in UPC told me personally that Jesus is only King to the Christian but shall be king over the world after the rapture and in the millennium when He sits on the throne of David at that time. He believes Jesus is not on the throne o f David yet. I am glad you DISAGREE! Praise God!

The Bride of Christ is what's raptured out(THE CHURCH) the fullness of the gentiles has nothing to do with the catching away.Of course it has something to do with the falling away.

I am glad you say the fullness of gentiles is not the catching away, but it again seems you disagree with other pretrib people.

Zechariah 2:9-12 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them.Then you will know that the Lord almighty has sent me.(10)Shout and be glad,O daughter of Zion.For I am coming,and I WILL LIVE AMONG YOU,DECLARES THE LORD.(11) Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people.I WILL LIVE AMONG YOU AND YOU WILL KNOW THAT THE LORD ALMIGHTY HAS SENT ME TO YOU.(12) The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the Holy land and will again CHOOSE JERUSALEM.
So yes bro.Blume he will turn his eyes back to Israel

No He will not. They have to turn their eyes back to Him!

Romans 11:7 KJV What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And the all important factor you are not seeing is that GOD DOES NOT BLIND DESCENDANTS OF ISRAEL for the sin of their fathers. This blindness in Romans is caused by God on the people who rejected Jesus. God does not do that with descendants of Jews who rejected Jesus. The first century Jews rejected Him. God does not blind their kids before they're born. Satan blinds the minds of the people who know not the gospel. But God only blinds people after they see the truth and reject it. So this blindness in Romans 11 does not even exist today. I already mentioned Ezekiel 18 which says ISRAEL shall not experience a judgment for sins of their fathers. The soul that sins, it alone shall die, not the soul's descendants not even born yet.

Your view violates Ezekiel 18 if you think the blindness on Israel today is of God and due to their ancestors' rejection of Jesus.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,Go and measure the temple of God and the alter,and count the worshipers there.(2) But exclude the outer court,do not measure it,BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE GENTILES.They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.(3) And I will give power to my two witnesses,and they will prophesy for 1,260 days,clothed in sack cloth.

The treading down of Jerusalem already occurred in the Romans siege, since it took 3.5 years to complete. That was up until AD70. That is history!

Luke 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Even pretribbers know Luke 21 is talking about AD70. And that is what Rev 11 is talking about.

[mfblume]

PRETRIB TEACHINGS

http://www.ccboise.org/Portals/0/doc...dyGuide_03.pdf

Fullness of The Gentiles - This is a part of the mystery Paul just referred to in this verse. This refers to the completion of the salvation of all the Gentiles that God has ordained to be saved through His own foreknowledge prior to the rapture of the church. The rapture of the church is a reference to the church being caught up to be with Christ before God’s wrath is poured out during the seven-year tribulation upon the Earth. Please refer to the attached outline on End Time events for more detail on the rapture, the tribulation, and the second coming of Christ.

--------------------

http://www.amcc.org/pdfs/Tim%27sReso...RIBULATION.pdf

Note that in Romans 11:25 the historical punctuation mark for the grafting back in of Israel is the incoming of "the full number of Gentiles." This implies that the quota of souls for the Church will at that point be full and the Church will be removed from the earth. Otherwise, souls would continue to be saved and added to the Church, and therefore the number of the Gentiles could not be said to be full.

---------------------

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...f-the-rapture/

I do not believe it’s even remotely possible to predict the date of the Rapture because I believe it will happen when the Church reaches its predetermined number, not when our calendar reaches a predetermined date. In other words, there is no predetermined date, at least on Earth. My authority for this is Romans 11:25

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

The phrase “full number” was a nautical term describing the number of crewmen legally required for a ship to set sail. The phrase “come in” means to arrive at a pre-determined destination. Paul was hinting that on the day and hour the Church reaches its full complement, we’ll be launched toward our pre-determined destination, regardless of the date on the calendar. Some days I can almost feel the excitement and anticipation of those in Heaven as they watch the counter steadily click upward toward that “full” number.

----------------------------

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-...11-25-26-1.htm

So the Gospel went to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected it. That began the period of time in which the Gospel was given to the Gentiles....thus the phrase "fullness of the Gentiles" refers to the end of the period when the Gospel is going to them.
Prophetcially the next prophetc event will be Christ coming for His bride, or body which means all Christian from Pentecost until the beginning of the Tribulation. (1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-58)

[Falla39]

Old Covenant - Old natural Israel - Lawkeeping and animal sacrifices
Old Natural city of Jerusalem

Jesus, the Seed of Abraham came bringing in a
New Covenant - Grace and mercy
(Spiritual) God's laws IN hearts of flesh.
New Jerusalem, The Church - The New (Restored) Israel of God

2 Cor. 5:16-18
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

[easter]

Ok bro.Blume you seen to believe you know about pretrib and if you did then you would not have to go around asking how pretrib believe.Pretrib do not believe that Jesus is only a priest.Now are you trying to tell me how I'm suppose to believe as a pretrib?
No this discussion has grown boring with you because you don't really even know how someone who is pretrib believes.You post a link about how I should believe as a pretribber
We don't agree Blume,I know what I believe the question is,DO YOU?
Here's an ideal!You get in your Bible and get out of the teaching of men and you'll find the truth without having to rely on men's teachings of how we are suppose to believe.If your teachers said pretrib believe that Jesus is only a priest ,good thing I didn't read that man made garage or I could believe that.God is good and he leads us in truth of the scriptures.
Well I'm through here,you've pretty much HI JACKED this thread with your beliefs.Hope you find the truth!