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  #171  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:06 PM
Jaxon Jaxon is offline
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Posts: 146
Re: Universal Health Care

We are not bleeding professionals, we just have a growing population with not enough professionals to replace the ones lost through attrition.

Thank you Ron

It's not hard to see....supply and demand

Bring in nationalized health care and demand will absolutely crush supply.

Another thing.......Aquila:

I am a bureaucrat. I see the ineffeciency's where I am. There is no profit motive in government work. It's as simple as that. I do not hate the government. Ferd doesn't hate the government. I have never heard anyone defend the effectiveness of government run entities the way you do. That's one reason people feel like going beserk when they hear talk of nationalizing banks.

As a bureaucrat I believe in a saying (I think this came from Benjamin Franklin) that goes like this........The government that governs least governs best.
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  #172  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:22 PM
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CC1 CC1 is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf View Post
Interesting observation.

Does the US government not already provide healthcare, paid for by the tax payers, to the people who would be apt to be heavy users of a universal system?
Not to the degree that the system would be overwhelmed if they had access to "free" healthcare without question and that is exactly what a single payer program would end up being for millions of Americans. The rest of us would end up paying their premiums.

As is they can get critical care that is paid for by all and they can also go to free or charity clinics based on your ability to pay. I have two relatives who have gone to those type clinics over the past year because they were in a situation without insurance temporarily. Does not mean they will not have insurance again soon though. It was a good temporary resource.

Here is how these type government programs go down in America. For example take the noble goal that LBJ had of helping indigent mothers with dependent children.

A welfare program was designed to help this very small minority of women who were trying to raise children on their own due to absentee fathers.

However once a program was in place and the amount a recipient received was based on the need (translated = number of children), babies started popping out like microwave popcorn at about 700 watts!

By the mid 1970's when I lived in a '"gument" housing project with my widowed mother we were surrounded by households with not one, two or even three children of mothers without husbands but usually close to a half dozen or more and usually by as many different men. The more fatherless kids the bigger the "gument" check and food stamps were.

Thankfully several decades later welfare reform slowed that nonsense down but it proves my point about how if you have a government program to fulfill a certain need it will undoubtably grow beyond your wildest expectations.

If the government came up with a plan to help out one armed red haired folks there would be a run on hair dye and knives as people would put themselves in that position.

My state of Tennessee has almost gone bankrupt experimenting with an alternative to medicaid that was intended to offer single payer insurance to those that could not get it on their job. The result was a lot more cost than ever anticipated and employers dropping their health plans because they know their employees can get on TennCare.

I actually had a temp employee I wanted to hire full time for my company a few years ago decline the job offer because her TennCare coverage and premium was cheaper than our company coverage. Of course it was only cheaper to her because all of the rest of us taxpayers in Tennessee were footing the real bill.
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

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  #173  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:29 PM
Jaxon Jaxon is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

And why is California going bankrupt?

Too many freeloaders riding in the wagon of entitlements and not enough of the hard working stiffs to pull it.

How many illegal alians can you let in the lifeboat before it capsizes? I think CA is finding out about right now.
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  #174  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:39 PM
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Ron Ron is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
Not to the degree that the system would be overwhelmed if they had access to "free" healthcare without question and that is exactly what a single payer program would end up being for millions of Americans. The rest of us would end up paying their premiums.

As is they can get critical care that is paid for by all and they can also go to free or charity clinics based on your ability to pay. I have two relatives who have gone to those type clinics over the past year because they were in a situation without insurance temporarily. Does not mean they will not have insurance again soon though. It was a good temporary resource.

Here is how these type government programs go down in America. For example take the noble goal that LBJ had of helping indigent mothers with dependent children.

A welfare program was designed to help this very small minority of women who were trying to raise children on their own due to absentee fathers.

However once a program was in place and the amount a recipient received was based on the need (translated = number of children), babies started popping out like microwave popcorn at about 700 watts!

By the mid 1970's when I lived in a '"gument" housing project with my widowed mother we were surrounded by households with not one, two or even three children of mothers without husbands but usually close to a half dozen or more and usually by as many different men. The more fatherless kids the bigger the "gument" check and food stamps were.

Thankfully several decades later welfare reform slowed that nonsense down but it proves my point about how if you have a government program to fulfill a certain need it will undoubtably grow beyond your wildest expectations.

If the government came up with a plan to help out one armed red haired folks there would be a run on hair dye and knives as people would put themselves in that position.

My state of Tennessee has almost gone bankrupt experimenting with an alternative to medicaid that was intended to offer single payer insurance to those that could not get it on their job. The result was a lot more cost than ever anticipated and employers dropping their health plans because they know their employees can get on TennCare.

I actually had a temp employee I wanted to hire full time for my company a few years ago decline the job offer because her TennCare coverage and premium was cheaper than our company coverage. Of course it was only cheaper to her because all of the rest of us taxpayers in Tennessee were footing the real bill.
That is a problem.
We had a Right Wing Government voted in as our Provincial Government in 2001 & they are still in power.
If you go on welfare in B.C. you can only get a maximum of $1,000 a month for housing, food, utilities, for everything.
You can only be on it for a maximum of 24 months at a time & only allowed to be on it twice within 5 years.

Perhaps it isn't the system but the Government?
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  #175  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:22 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
Fantastic! Canada has more trust worthy law makers than America. when we can deliver mail like the Canadians, then maybe you can convince me that our congress can write a bill that wont kill the American system.

right now the American Congress gets no vote of confidence from me!
I think Ferd's upset because his Christmas card was late or something. lol
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  #176  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:23 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxon View Post
We are not bleeding professionals, we just have a growing population with not enough professionals to replace the ones lost through attrition.

Thank you Ron

It's not hard to see....supply and demand

Bring in nationalized health care and demand will absolutely crush supply.

Another thing.......Aquila:

I am a bureaucrat. I see the ineffeciency's where I am. There is no profit motive in government work. It's as simple as that. I do not hate the government. Ferd doesn't hate the government. I have never heard anyone defend the effectiveness of government run entities the way you do. That's one reason people feel like going beserk when they hear talk of nationalizing banks.

As a bureaucrat I believe in a saying (I think this came from Benjamin Franklin) that goes like this........The government that governs least governs best.
Are you saying that Anarchy would be ideal?
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  #177  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:24 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AZ
Posts: 16,746
Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxon View Post
We are not bleeding professionals, we just have a growing population with not enough professionals to replace the ones lost through attrition.

Thank you Ron

It's not hard to see....supply and demand

Bring in nationalized health care and demand will absolutely crush supply.

Another thing.......Aquila:

I am a bureaucrat. I see the ineffeciency's where I am. There is no profit motive in government work. It's as simple as that. I do not hate the government. Ferd doesn't hate the government. I have never heard anyone defend the effectiveness of government run entities the way you do. That's one reason people feel like going beserk when they hear talk of nationalizing banks.

As a bureaucrat I believe in a saying (I think this came from Benjamin Franklin) that goes like this........The government that governs least governs best.
What he said.

How anyone can stand in line at either the post office or especially the department of motor vehicles and see that even as the place is PACKED with people, all the people behind their windows are taking their union-required breaks and lunches, is aggravating beyond words. When I was store manager, the customer came first and I missed MANY lunches and breaks because it was simply too busy for me to leave. How anyone could want anything like that for even MORE institutions is beyond me.
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  #178  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:37 PM
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ILG ILG is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Several major issues there and I feel for you. If you dont' mind me asking, how much are you (we) paying for cancer treatments?
Well, you know how easy it is to figure that out!! (Not!!) Our guess is about $50,000 total between surgery and radiation. This was an "easy" cancer with a good prognosis.
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  #179  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:44 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

I'm hearing the health care industry referred to as being "free market" etc. I think this is a characterization. An example of a true free market system would be the auto sales market. In the auto sales market if you don't have the money in hand or you can't qualify for a car loan YOU DON'T GET A CAR. Let's imagine that the auto sales industry was managed like our health care industry...

**Dreamy music begins**

Millions of Americans can't afford cars...nor do they qualify for car loans. However, when in dire need of transportation or repairs they run to the emergency room of their local car dealership. There the dealer is bound by his oath and ethics to provide them transportation regardless of their ability to pay. Millions drive off of the lot every day with new cars or with needed repairs and the dealers simply bill them. The vast majority cannot pay these bills so at best a small margin of them are slow payers...the vast majority of them don't pay their bills and every 30 seconds an American declares bankruptcy because they can't afford to pay for their new car. The dealerships are forced by market demands to pass this loss down to the consumer (those of us who can pay) in higher prices on cars every quarter. However, since the price goes up every quarter, in a years time an additional 1 million Americans find themselves unable to afford to buy a car...and when they have dire need for transportation they report to the dealer's emergency room to get a car they will never be able to pay for....this of course drives the cost up yet another quarter...causing now even MORE Americans to be unable to buy a car.

As you can see this IS NOT A FREE MARKET INDUSTRY if ran this way. This is health care in America. If it were truly a FREE MARKET industry those without insurance or without money to pay could be denied services in the ER. However, that isn't done. That means that this is actually a HUMANITARIAN SERVICE. That means in order to offset costs we need more Americans paying into the system as much as possible. As expensive as it will be to do so the CURRENT SYSTEM cannot sustain itself. Eventually NO ONE will be able to afford health insurance and only the ultra rich who pay out of pocket will be able to pay for it passing all the cost down to them in the highest of medical care costs. You might not be all for a system like Canada's...but a universal system where everyone pays into the system is desperately needed to offset costs for all Americans.

The only other option to significantly reduce costs would be to deny care to those who are uninsured or who can't afford it.

The idea that the health care industry is a "free market" industry is a downright laughable claim by those who obviously don't know how the industry works.
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  #180  
Old 02-24-2009, 09:45 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Universal Health Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
What he said.

How anyone can stand in line at either the post office or especially the department of motor vehicles and see that even as the place is PACKED with people, all the people behind their windows are taking their union-required breaks and lunches, is aggravating beyond words. When I was store manager, the customer came first and I missed MANY lunches and breaks because it was simply too busy for me to leave. How anyone could want anything like that for even MORE institutions is beyond me.
You mean you didn't stand up for the fact that you are a human being who could simply use two 15 minute breaks and a lunch each day? Boy, they have you pistol whipped. Let me guess....you didn't even EAT unless they told you that you could, right? lol

That's called "slave mentality".

If we'd let them...they'd not even give you days off or time to go to church.

If you enjoy your weekend and time to go to church...thank a union. You wouldn't have a weekend if it wasn't for us.

Truth is you were just in a hurry to get back to eating Cheetos and listening to Sean Hannity to realize that these employees were abiding by a contract that preserved their human dignity. LOL

Love ya bro! But I see it differently because no corporation is my master...even the GOVERNMENT has to treat me according to contract.

If an employee of any institution is taking a break, even if I'm next in line, I respect that.

P.S.
Please note, it's not an issue of being "union-required". It's a matter of a legally binding contract.
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