Would This Man be Welcome to Preach at Conference?

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Simple question for you if you don't mind:

If Jesus came to your church, with his beard, would you let him preach for you? Or would he be banned from ministry, since his beard goes against the "better, cleaner, more wholesome image" you're referring to?

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(Any other pastors with a "no facial hair" policy are free to answer the question also.)


.

I would request he put on a pair of pants.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by TCSQ

Wasn't she COOL! Cape AND Tambourine! "The Whites don't WANT me and the blacks wont have me!!!" -Willie Johnson

Oh and did you EVER hear her sing "Jesus is the light...Light of the world, he's ever shining in my heart!" ?


You do realize that you had a most unusual pastor in those days if he would have opened up the church for her, though she really did have quite a following! Bishop Stallworth who recently passed away told me he almost joined the UPC years ago until he found out that he would be listed in the directory but in the "Colored Ministers" section.

That was kind of the end of that!

Yes, she did have a very unusual way about her. I can even picture what her hair looked like. And dressed in all white, and then that cape.

My pastor then, was unusual for the times. He welcomed black, and hispanic preachers and those from other oneness orginizations to preach from time to time.

He put me up on the platform railing when I was 2 or 3 years old to sing. He would just hold me up there and let me sing. He was unique I think for that era.

Oh my goodness, that was probably how it was at the time. Sometimes I wonder how many holiness people were treated back then by their own.

[theoldpaths]

I wonder if a born-again apostolic who ate things strangled in blood and things sacrificed unto idols would be allowed to preach by Paul, after the ordinances created at the conference of Paul, Barnabas, the elders, and the apostles?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

I wonder if a born-again apostolic who ate things strangled in blood and things sacrificed unto idols would be allowed to preach by Paul, after the ordinances created at the conference of Paul, Barnabas, the elders, and the apostles?

Sorry buddy. Nice try. But it doesn't fly.

Actually not such a nice try... since you seem to be trying to put these anti-facial hair man-made rules on the same level as the rules given by the Apostles by the inspiration of the Spirit in Acts 15..

Big difference: the rules not to eat things strangled or sacrificed to idols were given to them by the Holy Ghost. If you look at what it says in Acts 15:28-29

28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Those were not man made rules. That was a divinely inspired rule.

You can find no such divinely inspired rule in scripture that says men should not have facial hair, or that men with facial hair shouldn't preach. Not even close. Any such rule or tradition today in pentecostal churches is man-made, and most are willing to admit that.

So please don't try to put man-made traditions on the same level as the Spirit's instructions given to the church by the Apostles in Acts 15.

Frankly, I find it deplorable that you would even attempt to do so.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I would request he put on a pair of pants.

Well I guess Jesus would have to take off his sandals too, since "open-toe shoes" are another thing forbidden to the saints in some of our churches.

(....or is that only for the women?)


*sigh*

Father, open the eyes of your people.
In Jesus' name.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Sorry buddy. Nice try. But it doesn't fly.

Actually not such a nice try... since you seem to be trying to put these anti-facial hair man-made rules on the same level as the rules given by the Apostles by the inspiration of the Spirit in Acts 15..

Big difference: the rules not to eat things strangled or sacrificed to idols were given to them by the Holy Ghost. If you look at what it says in Acts 15:28-29

28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Those were not man made rules. That was a divinely inspired rule.

You can find no such divinely inspired rule in scripture that says men should not have facial hair, or that men with facial hair shouldn't preach. Not even close. Any such rule or tradition today in pentecostal churches is man-made, and most are willing to admit that.

So please don't try to put man-made traditions on the same level as the Spirit's instructions given to the church by the Apostles in Acts 15.

Frankly, I find it deplorable that you would even attempt to do so.

Jesus knew that issues would come up after He was gone up from the world and told those who would be leaders of his church the following...

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

And we have a very practical example in Acts of an issue that came up that required Paul and Barnabbas to meet with the elders and Apostles at Jerusalem. Men discussed, made decisions, and put them in writing and it was communicated to all the gentle churches to be obeyed.

Notice that is was James who suggested what finally became the decision put in writing...

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now just like Jesus said in Matt 18 that whatsoever the leaders would bind/loose on earth, that Jesus would bind/loose in heaven - that he would stand behind them and back them up. And on this occasion that is exactly what happened - Jesus - by the Holy Ghost indicated that the decision that was made was good unto him. The leadership bound/loosed it on earth in agreement, and God bound/loosed it in heaven and indicated so to them somehow. What is first? Binding/loosing on earth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

The scripture is quite clear that it was ordained by the apostles.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Kinda reminds me of...

Deu 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
Deu 17:9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment:
Deu 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
Deu 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Deu 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
Deu 17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

As to the original post, I'm sure that Paul would NOT let a born again apostolic gentile preach that was knowingly disobedient to not eating things strangled in blood and sacrificed unto idols.

As to another OT type, those who know the word know that Moses created laws that did NOT come from God, but the people were still expected to obey.

As to pre-law man-made rules, we have Adam probably creating a rule/law for Eve not to touch the fruit; whereas God's original writing was only not to eat of it.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Jesus knew that issues would come up after He was gone up from the world and told those who would be leaders of his church the following...

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

And we have a very practical example in Acts of an issue that came up that required Paul and Barnabbas to meet with the elders and Apostles at Jerusalem. Men discussed, made decisions, and put them in writing and it was communicated to all the gentle churches to be obeyed.

Notice that is was James who suggested what finally became the decision put in writing...

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now just like Jesus said in Matt 18 that whatsoever the leaders would bind/loose on earth, that Jesus would bind/loose in heaven - that he would stand behind them and back them up. And on this occasion that is exactly what happened - Jesus - by the Holy Ghost indicated that the decision that was made was good unto him. The leadership bound/loosed it on earth in agreement, and God bound/loosed it in heaven and indicated so to them somehow. What is first? Binding/loosing on earth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

The scripture is quite clear that it was ordained by the apostles.

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Kinda reminds me of...

Deu 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
Deu 17:9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment:
Deu 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
Deu 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Deu 17:12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
Deu 17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

As to the original post, I'm sure that Paul would NOT let a born again apostolic gentile preach that was knowingly disobedient to not eating things strangled in blood and sacrificed unto idols.

As to another OT type, those who know the word know that Moses created laws that did NOT come from God, but the people were still expected to obey.

As to pre-law man-made rules, we have Adam probably creating a rule/law for Eve not to touch the fruit; whereas God's original writing was only not to eat of it.

can we say extrapolate ???

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

can we say extrapolate ???

Can we say a direct, practical example of what Jesus said in Matt 18?

Jesus was preparing the future leadership of His church that He would leave in their hands on earth.

Jesus told them that whatsoever THEY would bind/loose on earth - they would have to be the ones to bind/loose on earth, because Jesus would be leaving the earth - that HE would bind/loose in heaven.

In Acts, Jesus left the earth, and lo and behold, an issue came up that the leadership needed a decision on; they bound/loosed something on earth and Jesus by the Holy Ghost bound/loosed it in heaven and indicated that it was good unto Him.

Thank God for Jesus' word and the examples of the early church!

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Can we say a direct, practical example of what Jesus said in Matt 18?

Jesus was preparing the future leadership of His church that He would leave in their hands on earth.

Jesus told them that whatsoever THEY would bind/loose on earth - they would have to be the ones to bind/loose on earth, because Jesus would be leaving the earth - that HE would bind/loose in heaven.

In Acts, Jesus left the earth, and lo and behold, an issue came up that the leadership needed a decision on; they bound/loosed something on earth and Jesus by the Holy Ghost bound/loosed it in heaven and indicated that it was good unto Him.

Thank God for Jesus' word and the examples of the early church!

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

and your point is??

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

As to pre-law man-made rules, we have Adam probably creating a rule/law for Eve not to touch the fruit; whereas God's original writing was only not to eat of it.

Adam "probably" created a rule for Eve?

You KNOW there's no scripture for that, so why would you even try to go there? Why not just stick to scripture instead of speculating and adding stuff that's not there? Isn't the clear word of scripture enough??

Again, there you go, speculating on something not stated or even indicated in scripture.... just do support your preconceived point of view. That is shameful. But unfortunately, that kind of "stretching" of the Word of God has been common in Pentecost from day one.

To me it's just as appalling to see how so many pastors and church leaders have overreached beyond the intent of scripture to put people in bondage to their man-made rules... [don't wear RED, don't have a beard,don't drink coffee/tee, having a TV is sinful, no open toe shoes....etc, etc] totally missing the intent and meaning of the grace we have in Christ under the New Covenant.

Scripture does not give you the right to act as spiritual dictators over the lives of God's people. For too many pastors in Pentecost, it's about control; controlling people's lives and putting them under bondage to unscriptural rules, many of which have nothing to do with righteousness.

Fortunately, as the old generation passes off the scene, I'm believing that will raise up a new generation of leaders who love Him and His Kingdom more than they love their traditions and made-up rules. Glory to His name.

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It disgusts me to think how many souls we may have lost the opportunity to reach over the years, because of this kind of foolishness.