Reading Fudge's Book Again

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here for info's sake.
http://newadvent.org/fathers/26014.htm

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Barb

I need to do this hurriedly, but first, thank you to Adino and pelathais for your time and efforts, and I apologize for taking so long to get back to this.

I will say again that even without proof, I am of the firm conviction that the Church has always prevailed with a remnant through every period of time.

If I may, I will quote from Bro. MMA's Introduction in Apostolic History Outline, and follow it with a question.

"Heavily documented, this reliable and understandable outline depicts ancient and modern functions of the Jerusalem (Acts 2) Church. Christ’s Church of Matt. 16:18 never died. It was always alive and never ceased to be doctrinally and spiritually intact for all people in all ages…

We have not used suppositional material. We certify that the facts -- dates, figures and quotes are accurate…

The quotes used in this outline are from the most credible of historians -- Heick, Harnack, hogben, Knox, Hayes, Schaff, Langer, Verduin, Bernstein, Geen, Blunt, and many others.”

Are you saying that everything the elder wrote above was not accurate?!

Yes. I remember as the elder sat in my father in law's (to be) parsonage office many years ago. I asked him point blank about his outline. He down played most of it and deflected my questions. This was the only occassion that I had ever met him. My FIL wanted me to produce some material that went along with the elder's work. I declined to be involved without more and better information. You probably heard about the outcome of the event that followed. I stayed at my parent's home and buried my head in my pillow. Literally.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

It is very plausible to suggest that what many groups believed has been misrepresented in historical writings. For instance, most encyclopedic references to the Paulicians regard them as "dualist Manicheans". Even though their own statement of faith, the "Key of Truth", suggests nothing of dualism or Manicheanism. Suggesting the Paulicians were Manicheanists is even more absurd considering they anathematized Mani and his doctrine.

Basically I am taking an analytical approach. I am not disregarding the historical data, simply putting that data into proper context and perspective rather than embracing the traditional declared "history". For instance, in 1441, the Roman Catholic church convened the Council of Florence. It's premise was to discuss and denounce the "Sabellian" teachings prevailent at their day. Now consider that Sabellius first started teaching his form of Monarchianism around 200AD. This was 1200 years later that there were still "Sabellians". (BTW, I have absolutely no problem with Sabellius' ideas about modalism and the monarchy of God, and the real humanity AND deity of Jesus Christ). Taking this data and extrapolating the implications, we see that throughout the dark ages, for 1200 years, the Roman Catholic's fought the theology of Sabellius. This is extremely notable. I do not have to appeal to the Cathari, Abligenses, Bogamils, etc. to prove my point.

The history, the uncorrupted data that is, speaks for itself. Although the Roman Catholic version of that history differs from Chalfant's and Weisser's and my own. Who is to suggest that the Roman Catholic version of history is "more authoritative" than either of these scholars, or anyone else who comes to a different conclusion. Again, the historical data speaks for itself. Simply alalyzing the data from an alternate presupposition resulting in a different conclusion does not make that conclusion any less valid than what is traditionally held and promoted. The problem is the predominant presupposition in modern christocentric history is that the primative ante-nicene church, was trinitarian. This presupposition is absolutley unsubstantiable, thus the false conclusions of the Roman Catholic system and history and modern ecclesiastical histories.

understandable, and that makes sense...

I guess my biggest question though is why does it matter?

I mean, we'll never know the entirety of history, because the "victor" (read: most powerful) write the history books and can say whatever they want...

history isn't truthful... What we really should be more worried about is the simple fact that the Catholics (that we say are so wrong) are the ones who compiled, chose, and transcribed/translated the Bible for those same years that we don't know if there were oneness people...

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

SE, I did not know Tom Fudge at all prior to him contacting me for an interview. He knew that I had left the UPCI in 1997 and at that time was going through some major battles with them. He also knew we had been missionaries with the UPC, District FM Director and District Board member, so I suppose he felt that my perspective would be meaningful in some way. It wasn't a good time to interview me because of the circumstances of the moment. My perspective on a lot of things was, to say the least, somewhat distorted by what I was going through at that time. One benefit of having spent 3 years here in BC is the opportunity to gain a better perspective on what happened during that turbulent period of our lives.

I just wondered since his roots was where you were for a season and with somewhat the same doctrinal background. EF knew his parents and remembered him as a young child. EF was out of Arthur McElroy's church. So he was water & Spirit. I guess I just missed the many times he quoted you before. However you were not nasty nor ugly just forthright about your feelings and positions.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

understandable, and that makes sense...

I guess my biggest question though is why does it matter?

I mean, we'll never know the entirety of history, because the "victor" (read: most powerful) write the history books and can say whatever they want...

history isn't truthful... What we really should be more worried about is the simple fact that the Catholics (that we say are so wrong) are the ones who compiled, chose, and transcribed/translated the Bible for those same years that we don't know if there were oneness people...

"Antiquities or Remnants of History are, as we said, tanguam tabula naufragii, [like the planks of a shipwreck;] when industrious persons by an exact and scrupulous diligence and observation, out of monuments, names, words, proverbs, traditions, private records and evidences, fragments of stories, passages of books that concern not story, and the like, do save and recover somewhat from the deluge of time.

"In these kinds of unperfect histories I do assign no deficience, for they are tanquam imperfecte mista, [things imperfectly compounded;] and therefore any deficience in them is but their nature."

Sir Francis Bacon

Since all we have to work with are "planks" scattered across the sea after a shipwreck, we must exercise due care and diligence that we pass the truth on to our children; and not "cunningly devised fables..." (Saint Paul).

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I hold a PCI view, BD. Hence, the Church are those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.... I along w/ other Apostolics, like Howard Goss, believe the Baptists and other believers will be saved. oloroid

The Church is not defined by your parameters.

My view is like that of Dan. The Church (with a capital C) consists of those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that anyone who may be Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Pentecostal (trinity or oneness) Episcopalian, or whatever label may be used is saved if he or she has asked Jesus into his/her life.

And, I consider myself Jesus' Name, Holiness, Apostolic, Oneness Pentecostal.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sarah

This thread reminds me of an incident that happened at the first UPC General Conference I ever attended. The year was either 1964 or 65, and it was in Grand Rapids, MI. Do any of you remember that conference? Bro Sam and Sis Fella are the only ones I can think of who would be old enough on this forum to remember, besides myself. Anyhow......

A Chinese man was brought to address the audience. Some of our people had "run into him" in China. This man told us an amazing story. There was an underground church there, and had been there since the "dark ages". He grilled our people (not sure if they were UPC, but were Apostolic) for hours on the new birth.....repentance, water baptism, infilling of the HG....... before he would allow them to preach to his people. He said the only difference in his church and the American church is that their women did not cut their hair. lol
...

I was only at one UPC conference. That was in Indianapolis in 1958 or 59. I think it was at Cadle Tabernacle.

We've been fooled before when we too quickly embraced some one and paraded him like a trophy, like the Russians Pentecostals or the Messianic believers of a couple years back.

God has had people, some times just a remnant, through history. Some times they were captives in a strange land like Daniel and his three boyhood friends.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

WHO determined they were truly "trinitarian"? I heard a black baptist on the radio describe the trinity as "three manifestations of Jesus Christ". He called himself trinitarian, but fundamentally he held a oneness view of the Godhead. There may even have been numerous "trinitarian" groups throughout history, that if you were to examine and scrutinize their doctrine, they very well have been oneness...

Anybody ever hear of a minister named C.C. Gosey? He died in February 1990 at the age of 90. I don't know if he was UPC or not. He lived in Norfolk, VA but had a sister or some family in Cincinnati, OH. He published books and a chart (like the Larkin Charts) that was available from the UPC Publishing house. One time while preaching at our ALJC church in the nineteen seventies he said that trinitarian and oneness folks actually believer the same but they just explain it differently.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

Anybody ever hear of a minister named C.C. Gosey? He died in February 1990 at the age of 90. I don't know if he was UPC or not. He lived in Norfolk, VA but had a sister or some family in Cincinnati, OH. He published books and a chart (like the Larkin Charts) that was available from the UPC Publishing house. One time while preaching at our ALJC church in the nineteen seventies he said that trinitarian and oneness folks actually believer the same but they just explain it differently.

I remember those charts. He used Larkin's as a template and made them more Apostolic oriented. I don't think I ever met him in person, though.

They were available from the Pub at one time. You can get them online here: http://www.armageddonbooks.com/gosey.html - kind of an "End of the World Clearing House..." Lots of different sources and materials. "Order now! Before it's too late!"

Originally Posted by pelathais

Since all we have to work with are "planks" scattered across the sea after a shipwreck, we must exercise due care and diligence that we pass the truth on to our children; and not "cunningly devised fables..." (Saint Paul).

I agree with that...

and, honestly, for that reason I think we shouldn't try and "piece together" where there were people like us through history and just say "God would have preserved someone, whether we know who they were or not"...

trying to say this group or that group are like us is only going to end up making us look bad in the end and will never make us look good no matter how well we prove they believed like us...