Mark of the Beast may be only 2 1/2 years away

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

I don't believe he is.

Are there any passages of Scripture speaking of the dead being judged that are NOT referring to the destruction of Jerusalem?

Today we are not judged by God if we live by faith, there is no other judgment coming.

What about this? Did this occur in 70 AD?

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. [11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2Ti_4:8.. Now there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that Day; and not to me only, but also to all those who love His appearing.

Where is the judgment to those who look for his appearing? As Paul is speaking of the end of his life.

Where does it say he is "speaking of the end of his life"? He begins by saying this:

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

He then says this:

2 Timothy 4:8 KJV
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Clearly, the "day" he is speaking of is the day of the Lord's appearing (verse 1) and not the day of his own death. So he wasn't speaking of the end of his life in the sense of the day of his death. Maybe in the sense of "the final disposition of his life" which wouldn't say anything at all about any particular time.

In any event, it seems you are saying that after 70 AD there is no judgment for anyone. Which means sinners and unbelievers will never be judged (neither will saints), which means you have no idea what the fate of any unbelievers is since AD 70, and I would venture to say that - simply following your logic of there being NO judgment - you would also have no idea what the fate of the saints is (since AD 70). You might have an opinion or a belief, but certainly not a Scripturally based faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the Word of God, and you have no Word of God for any judgment of anyone after AD 70.

Which basically means what is the point of evangelism?

Also, if judgment has been over and done with, and men are no longer accountable for their deeds, that is essentially an overthrow of the very kingdom of God, because it means there has been an overthrow of the law or rule of God. Everything has been "decriminalized" and therefore there is no law, no moral law of God, no moral law to which men are held to account.

You essentially are denying a belief in any "future state of reward or punishment" (which by the way would have made you ineligible for public office in many states prior to the civil war, just throwing that out there.)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I’ve met Apostolics who believed that when anyone died they immediately went to judgement then either burned in hell, or went to heaven. Then there would be a great white throne of judgement for those at the final end of the earth age. If I remember correctly Elder James LeDeay argued that position. But then again he might of revised his position?

I have of course heard the nearly ubiquitous preaching that upon death one goes to heaven or hell. Then, the preaching about the white throne judgment and all mankind being judged. I NEVER heard anyone explain how people go to heaven or hell before being judged, in spite of my numerous questions. I also never heard anyone actually lay out that there are two judgments for everyone, one at death, and one at Judgment Day.

I have however heard a standard Protestant claim that upon death the soul goes to either hell (hades) or heaven, and gets a "taste" of their future judgment. At the judgment Day the wicked in hades get tossed into Gehenna and the saints go back to heaven.

None of that ever made any sense to me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

They don’t care for being proven wrong on things in discussions, so it’s “easier” to just hit the road?

I’d like to know the answer as well…
For me, I like to watch the discussions mostly, it takes me FOREVER to type anything out.

I mean there were a ton of people debating everything under the sun (especially standards and eschatology). They all seem to have disappeared. I guess they just got tired? And newer apostolics don't have the time or inclination?

It just seems weird to me. I think brother Benincasa may be on to something when he mentions "the algorithm". Makes me think of the "holonet" theory, aka "dead internet theory", the idea that everybody who goes online is actually in an artificially controlled internet bubble that they are led to believe is "the whole big internet", but it's really just a containment suite for them. Everybody is in their own bubble, managed by some super computer server farm run by the DOD or the NSA or whoever.

Pretty much AOL, in fact.

[Esaias]

Well, it seems that Bowas and the other guy (was it Truthseeker? Can't recall right off hand) have kind of bailed on the discussion. So, I'd like to address the timing issue of the Great White Throne Judgment and its relation to the events of AD 70.

It has been affirmed several times (including by Loren, I appreciate him sticking around for the discussion) that the Great White Throne Judgment occurred at the same time as the destruction of Jerusalem. I am not sure how or why that connection is made, but in any event it seems such cannot be correct for this reason:

Revelation 17:1 KJV
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:


There is no description or mention of a general judgement of all the dead during the scene in which John is shown the "judgment of the great whore" which i presume is identified as earthly Jerusalem. Thus the judgment of the great whore would be the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Revelation 18:8-11 KJV
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. [9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, [10] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. [11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Here, AFTER the destruction of the great whore, we have the kings of the earth mourning for the loss of the city, and the merchants of the earth lamenting the fact that they lost a bunch of money when the city was destroyed. This implies people - including the wicked - are still around and have not yet been judged, AFTER the city has been judged and destroyed.

Revelation 19:17-21 KJV
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Regardless of how one interprets these things, the fact is they occur AFTER the destruction of the great city. The destruction of the beast and the false prophet and their armies is a LATER EVENT distinct from the destruction of the great city.

Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Again, regardless of how one interprets these things, they clearly occur AFTER the destruction of the great city. The chaining of the dragon and the resurrection and reigning of the saints here described is clearly a SEPARATE and LATER EVENT from the destruction of the great city.

Revelation 20:7-10 KJV
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Once again, whatever this is describing, it is describing things that happen AFTER the destruction of the great city.

Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Finally, we get to the great white throne judgment. AFTER the previous events.

I just do not see any way whatsoever that the great white throne judgment is symbolic of the destruction of Jerusalem, nor do I see any way that it can have occurred simultaneously with the destruction of Jerusalem. The Bible clearly lays out a SEQUENCE of events - first this, then that, after these things then this, etc.

1. Destruction of great city by the beast's horns.
2. Destruction of beast by Christ.
3. Imprisonment of dragon.
4. Resurrection and reign of saints.
5. Release of dragon.
6. Battle of "Gog and Magog".
7. Destruction of dragon and Gog/Magog army.
8. Dead standing before God to be judged.

Number 8 and number 1 cannot possibly be simultaneous, they are clearly distinguished as following a particular order of succession.

Did all this happen in 70 AD?
Rome (everyone acknowledges the beast represents the Roman power) was certainly not destroyed in 70 AD.
Was the dragon chained in 70 AD? In what meaningful way? The nations were deceived pagans before 70 AD, and continued to be deceived pagans for quite some time. And still are. Was the Jewish power restrained from evangelism ("deceiving the nations") in 70 AD? Maybe for a brief moment but they successfully converted an entire kingdom (Khazaria) in the early middle ages and have continued as a religious system unstopped by the destruction of the Temple. In fact, the destruction of the Temple is what gave the
Pharisees total control over Judaism as the Sadducean party was essentially rendered moot at that point.
1000 year reign of the saints? It clearly is a time period having a beginning and an end. The one thousand year duration clearly represents a long period of time. Was it begun and ended all within one year, 70 AD? How is that? What is the point of the symbolism of 1000 years if it actually only lasted about a year?

Wait a minute, the thousand year reign doesn't begin until after the two beasts are destroyed, which as we know did not happen in 70 AD. Rome did not fall in 70 AD. And the great white throne judgment doesn't take place until after the END of the thousand years.

So, I just don't see where the great white throne judgment - whatever it represents - could have possibly transpired in 70 AD.

[Esaias]

It has also been asserted that the judgment was for Israel only.

Revelation 20:13 KJV
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Were only Israelites in death and hades? If so, then where did non Israelites go when they died? According to this verse, the people being judged were the people previously held in death and hades. If these are only Israelites, then non Israelites did not go to death or hades. Apparently, they didn't wind up in the sea either even if they drowned at sea?

So what was the fate of non Israelites after death? Wait, how could they even be said to be dead, since they weren't held by death? They weren't in the grave (hades, sheol), they weren't lost at sea, they weren't even held by death... so what happened to them? I mean, what about Abraham? He wasn't an Israelite. What about Noah, Shem, Japheth? Methuselah? Seth? What about Naaman the Syrian? The widow of Sarepta?

I think the answer is obvious: these "dead" are not just Israelites, but they are exactly what the Bible says they are - the DEAD. Regardless of their nationality.

[Esaias]

Clearly, non Israelites go to hell too -

Psalm 9:17 KJV
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:3-4 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, [4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Here we have a proverb against the Babylonian king. Notice what it says about his fate:

Isaiah 14:9 KJV
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Not only is the non Israelite Babylonian king going to hell, but the kings of the heathen nations are already there!

So, death and hell contain ALL the dead, not just Israelite dead, but heathen dead as well. Therefore, the great white throne judgment is NOT and CANNOT be limited to Israel only.

[Esaias]

And finally, I shall now show that the judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD is NOT the general judgment of the nations, but that the latter is in fact a LATER event, distinct and separate from the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:2 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus begins the famous Olivet Prophecy of Jerusalem's judgment and destruction. He states this:

Matthew 24:21 KJV
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

But then He says this:

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice these events occur AFTER the tribulation of those days. What days? AD 70! AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, AFTER the "Great Tribulation", several things happen. But what happens AFTER THOSE THINGS?

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is the Judgment of ALL NATIONS, not the judgment of Jerusalem. Everlasting fire prepared for the devil is clearly the thing referred to in the Revelation as the lake of fire. The wicked go into the lake of fire in Revelation, just as they do here, and this is a judgment upon all nations, just as in Revelation it is the dead who were in death, hades, and the sea - which as I have already shown, includes all the heathen.

This is a SEPARATE JUDGMENT that comes AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem. And therefore cannot be the same thing as the destruction of Jerusalem. It doesn't matter what one believes about how it takes place, or how long (or short) the time period between the two events is, nevertheless it is undeniable these are SEPARATE EVENTS describing SEPARATE JUDGMENTS.

Now, I know some will point to the fact that He said "When the Son of Man shall come in His glory" etc and claim that is the same coming as in Matthew 24. But the Scripture CLEARLY shows all through the Old Testament and the New Testament (including several times in Revelation!) that Jesus' "coming" is NOT a reference to a single one time event, but is a descriptive term for JUDGMENT. There are MULTIPLE "comings" of the Lord described in the Bible.

Conclusion? There is a general judgment of the nations DISTINCT from and AFTER the judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

But you brought up an interesting point, you speak of the last human kingdom? Would that be the feet mingled with Potters Clay and the Iron of Rome?

Can you please explain?

I'd like to hear the explanation as well.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

https://youtu.be/FO7X74VKb8Y?t=2623

Here is Ken Raggio in 2015 saying Matthew 24's end times events (which last for about 7 years, the last 3 and a half of which are the "Great Tribulation") will begin in 2021.

2021 plus 3.5 years is ... 2024.5? June of this year the Great Tribulation starts? We've already went through the first three and a half years? Did anyone tell brother Baxter?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

2021 plus 3.5 years is ... 2024.5? June of this year the Great Tribulation starts? We've already went through the first three and a half years? Did anyone tell brother Baxter?

I have 88 reasons why people need to quit setting dates. As for Bro Baxter he is resting peacefully.