1000 year reign

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh! I agree with you, then. I believe, though, that we will reign in both realms of heaven and earth. Heaven is a very real place, and that is where Christ's spiritual body is located now. So I think we will exist IN BOTH REALMS of heaven and earth.

But what do you believe about Christ ceasing to reign when he gives up the kingdom to the Father?

Wait a minute now. You say we will reign in Heaven and Earth. Presumably AFTER the rapture. Explain to me who we are going to reign OVER? Are you saying you believe there WILL be nations of people on the Earth AFTER the rapture?

If not who will be those who are ruled?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Wait a minute now. You say we will reign in Heaven and Earth. Presumably AFTER the rapture. Explain to me who we are going to reign OVER? Are you saying you believe there WILL be nations of people on the Earth AFTER the rapture?

If not who will be those who are ruled?

Someone told me tonight that it was the Jews. First time I heard that one. They also said that we are not the Bride, but the friends of the Bride. First for that one also.

[Michael The Disciple]

I was not aware that anti milleniumists even believed there would be anyone to reign over. That they thought the Earth would be gone and only Heaven left. They would live eternally in Heaven.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Wait a minute now. You say we will reign in Heaven and Earth. Presumably AFTER the rapture. Explain to me who we are going to reign OVER? Are you saying you believe there WILL be nations of people on the Earth AFTER the rapture?

If not who will be those who are ruled?

No there will not be nations as there are now that are susceptible to sin and death over whom we will reign after the rapture. Once eternity hits, there is more than this little earth, you know.

But I am saying WE RULE NATIONS NOW.

But you need to deal with some issues I raised in 1 Cor 15. Let's not make this one sided and you ask all the questions. And I thought you said we had no common ground to talk, and now you ask about this. Let's not avoid 1 Cor 15, bro.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I was not aware that anti milleniumists even believed there would be anyone to reign over. That they thought the Earth would be gone and only Heaven left. They would live eternally in Heaven.

Who said earth will be gone? lol

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I was not aware that anti milleniumists even believed there would be anyone to reign over. That they thought the Earth would be gone and only Heaven left. They would live eternally in Heaven.

They pointed to Rev 21 showing the Bride was the New Jerusalem and it wasn't the church.

It kept going around and I left not knowing exactly what they were talking about.

I think the point they were trying to make was that we will reign as kings and priests and ambassadors going back and forth between heaven and the new earth. They were trying to say that we will be reigning over something, so who was it? They think it is the Jews that didn't accept Him at first.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

They pointed to Rev 21 showing the Bride was the New Jerusalem and it wasn't the church.

It kept going around and I left not knowing exactly what they were talking about.

I think the point they were trying to make was that we will reign as kings and priests and ambassadors going back and forth between heaven and the new earth. They were trying to say that we will be reigning over something, so who was it? They think it is the Jews that didn't accept Him at first.

It seems to be getting more confusing. Michael had said that we will reign in Heaven and on Earth. Now it seems he is saying THIS IS IT. We are ruling over nations now.

So I wonder what scriptures like this one mean that puts the reigning somewhere in the future. After men have overcome and endured to the end?


25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27

And if we are going to be ambassadors between Heaven and Earth who is going to BE ON THE EARTH?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No there will not be nations as there are now that are susceptible to sin and death over whom we will reign after the rapture. Once eternity hits, there is more than this little earth, you know.

But I am saying WE RULE NATIONS NOW.

But you need to deal with some issues I raised in 1 Cor 15. Let's not make this one sided and you ask all the questions. And I thought you said we had no common ground to talk, and now you ask about this. Let's not avoid 1 Cor 15, bro.

Michael,

Yes I thought I was done. But any more my mind is not as sharp as it once was. Now it dawns on me you have said we WILL reign after the Lord comes. You have also said the Earth will remain. I dont remember anti 1000 year teachers saying this. I thought they believed like One Pastor I had taught that the Earth was going to be destroyed fully. Gone. So perhaps there IS more to discuss.

Also it seems to me when I give you facts that back my position you just sweep them aside as if they were not Bible truth. So are we really talking? And yes it makes a huge difference the approach we take in interpretation.

I speak specifically of Romans 8 concerning the manifestation of the Sons of God. This happens at the second coming. THEN we will DELIVER THE GROANING CREATION. We are not expected to do so now. We will bring a number of souls out of spiritual darkness. Heal the sick. Cast out demons according to our faith and the anointing given to us. But to rule over the nations, to deliver them is destined for us to perform after the second coming.

I notice you could not give one example of a nation that is being ruled over by the Saints. Not in the past of the Church age, neither now. Yes we both can give examples of prayer changing the course of nations or bringing mercy or judgment. But RULING THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON? Give me an example in THIS AGE of the Saints reigning over nations.

I can give you more where Saints are trampled under foot IN THIS WORLD.

Matter of fact even the context in Hebrews where men of faith subdued Kingdoms concludes thus:

32: And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34: Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35: Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38: (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Were these nomads reigning in life? Well yes I believe they were. But they were not ruling nations. They were reigning over their own spirits. They were great examples to us.

11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.







Obviously if I see Revelation as a combination of literal and symbolic things and you see nothing but symbolisms we are going to come to different conclusions. Revelation was given to bring forth MORE LIGHT than was previously given. It was not a simple rehashing of things already known.

I will get around to 1 Cor. 15. Lord willing. I work within short snippets of time for the most part. As a one finger typist its hard to get everything done I would like to do. This post took me almost an hour!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Michael,

Yes I thought I was done. But any more my mind is not as sharp as it once was. Now it dawns on me you have said we WILL reign after the Lord comes. You have also said the Earth will remain. I dont remember anti 1000 year teachers saying this. I thought they believed like One Pastor I had taught that the Earth was going to be destroyed fully. Gone. So perhaps there IS more to discuss.

I raised the issues in 1 Cor 15 because they tell all about the entire scenario.

Everyone's theory rises or falls based upon whether or not the scriptures allow for a time after the rapture in which there is death and sin. 1 Cor 15 says there will be no death after the rapture. Pretrib makes no sense at all in light of 1 Cor 15, because Paul listed EVERY MAN will be in one of two phases of all the resurrections that will ever occur. Either at Christ the firstfruits, or those that are Christ's at his coming. Christ the firstfruits occurred the third day when He arose. All that remains is those that are Christ's at His coming. One pretribber told me that Christ's COMING in verse 23 and the rapture of verses 51 onward are two different events!

And since Paul listed the only resurrections that EVERY MAN who will resurrect will be part of, speaking of positive resurrections that is, the rapture we read about in verse 51 onward is the one and the same as the resurrection at the Lord's coming in verse 23.

Paul says that death is destroyed at that point, and this is what defeats millennialism and post trib teaching. You good brethren believe death continues for another 1000 years after the rapture. Paul disallows that in 1 Cor 15.

There is a twofold emphasis placed upon death's obliteration at the point immediately following the rapture:

(1)

1Co 15:23-26 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Christ comes and the rapture occurs, Christ gives up the kingdom to the Father. This occurs because we read He must reign UNTIL all enemies are put under his feet. And since death is put under his feet when the rapture occurs, and death is the last enemy, it is then that he gives the Kingdom to the Father.

(2)

1Co 15:54 KJV So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul quoted Isaiah 25:8 which said death is swallowed up in victory. It also adds that at that same point, which is the rapture, all tears are wiped away.

Isa 25:8 KJV He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

THIS MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY MILLENNIAL TIME WHERE DEATH OCCURS< BECAUSE DEATH ENDS AT THE RAPTURE.

So please deal with THIS issue, that determine whether or not there CAN BE a millennium which allows death to continue to occur. Brother, you cannot ignore my questions to you that I have asked for days now, and start asking me NEW questions. It is simply unethical in such a discussion.

You say TIME is a factor for you to respond, but I have asked these questions for two days now, and you raise new questions and do not take the time instead of answer mine first!

Hom e in on the issues I already raised and we can deal with your's in turn. I claim the issues I raise in 1 Cor 15 do answer all your further questions anyway.

Also it seems to me when I give you facts that back my position you just sweep them aside as if they were not Bible truth.

I sweep them aside???? for one thing, you refuse to answer my questions and ask further ones of your own. And for another thing, I am saying the scriptures you refer to that involve ruling are fulfilled NOW. How many times have I said that?

So are we really talking? p

I am, and have been, but you refuse.

And yes it makes a huge difference the approach we take in interpretation.

I speak specifically of Romans 8 concerning the manifestation of the Sons of God. This happens at the second coming. THEN we will DELIVER THE GROANING CREATION. We are not expected to do so now. We will bring a number of souls out of spiritual darkness. Heal the sick. Cast out demons according to our faith and the anointing given to us. But to rule over the nations, to deliver them is destined for us to perform after the second coming.

No this not after the second coming. Romans 8 does not say anything about ruling over nations after the second coming. Romans 8 is about the second coming. Revelation IS NOT. The coming of the Lord in Revelation is the coming in wrath against natural Israel which has long since been fulfilled. Romans 8 says nothing about ruling over nations. You are taking two separate issues in two different contexts of different times and confusing them as one and the same.

I notice you could not give one example of a nation that is being ruled over by the Saints.

NOT ONE????? I said we rule over all of them NOW.

Just because the ruling is not in the manner you preconceived it to be, does not mean we are not ruling. We can SUBDUE KINGDOMS. I call that ruling.

Brother, they did THAT in the Old Testament!

Not in the past of the Church age, neither now. Yes we both can give examples of prayer changing the course of nations or bringing mercy or judgment. But RULING THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON? Give me an example in THIS AGE of the Saints reigning over nations.

I already answered this. Now continuing to ignore my earlier questions, and raising new ones, let's deal with mine first and you will find that my issues determine whether there can BE a millennium or not, which will solve everything anyway!

Obviously if I see Revelation as a combination of literal and symbolic things and you see nothing but symbolisms we are going to come to different conclusions.

Brother, your non-symbolic interpretation of Revelation causes it to conflict with what the bible says elsewhere. For the umpteenth time, let's deal with those alleged conflicts I accuse you of causing.

Revelation was given to bring forth MORE LIGHT than was previously given. It was not a simple rehashing of things already known.

Revelation brings more light ON WHAT WAS EXPLICITLY TAUGHT in the rest of the bible. Parables and visions do that. They exemplify the truths taught, while obscure things to the unbeliever. God WOULD NEVER give us doctrinal truths by way of VISIONS which include symbols where we are not told what symbolizes what. If God did that, then we would be left with a million and one different doctrines in each of our belief systems, and none of them would agree with the other person's million and one. If God did that, then there would be the bizarre nonsense that futurists have proposed in the past as in one man preaching there is a dragon in outer space with seven literal heads.

Brother, GOD DOES NOT GIVE DOCTRINE outside of explicit teaching format and expressly stated teachings. Revelation is a set of visions interspersed with symbols that are not explained, for goodness' sake.

I will get around to 1 Cor. 15. Lord willing. I work within short snippets of time for the most part. As a one finger typist its hard to get everything done I would like to do. This post took me almost an hour!

You could have taken that hour to respond to my issues in 1 Cor 15. Brother, let's be fair and ethical about this. This took me ten minutes.

[mfblume]

Brief note about Revelation and symbols:

Revelation is introduced as a book full of SYMBOLS of true events that were to come.

There is a phrase Jesus used when referring to understanding PARABLES.

Mat 13:12-17 KJV For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (16) But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (17) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Rev 1:3 KJV Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Being blessed to hear is biblical language for ability to interpret the SYMBOLS or PARABLES. Revelation is introduced by a twofold indication that its contents are SYMBOLIC of events that were to come. SIGNIFIED, and "HEAR". Revelation does not show actualities that were to come, but SYMBOLS of what actually would occur. They symbolize what the bible actually taught in explicit teaching form in the rest of the bible.