Defend your Faith

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Kutless

si if the miracle in ACTS was the hearing then we could say it was necessary to propogate the gospel at its birth. Multiple languages were necessary. And what a miracle it was.

But what purpose would that hold now?

I've never understood why speaking intongues in prayer was ant better that just using good ole king's english. And if Paul is admonishing us to speak tongues quietly in church then there are a bunch of charismatic/apostolic churches in violation of scripture.

I am still yet to find scripture that supports Heavenly language.

Romans 8:25-27

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Kutless,

It's clear in chapt 14 that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit and therefore is supernatural and does not come from learning a language from a book, in school, etc. It's not a natural gift that God gives either. Because Paul is talking about the body of Christ and to become part of that body one must be born again spiritually.

Paul tells us that speaking in tongues edifies the person doing it which is kind of funny when looking at it through your argument you would have to say it means preaching to yourself in another language is edifying! LOL If I was fluent in Hebrew as well as English and spoke/ preached to myself in Hebrew instead of English, how would that edify me?

that is not what I'm saying. vs.4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself"

Thats because he understood what he was saying.

"He that prophesieth edifieth the church"

because they understood what he was saying.

In looking at the reading I would see how somebody would come to the conclusion that Paul wasn't all that hip on tongues in church...vs18, vs 19,vs22, vs,27, vs.28

Now lets compare some other text:

ICorin. 14:9-10 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without significance.

Massech Sopherim, cap.I.hal.6 If any write the holy books in any language, or in any character, yet he shall not read them (publicly in the synagogue) unless they be written in Hebrew".


Does anybody here agree that the gentiles would not be able to understand Hebrew?

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Kutless

that is not what I'm saying. vs.4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself"

Thats because he understood what he was saying.

"He that prophesieth edifieth the church"

because they understood what he was saying.

In looking at the reading I would see how somebody would come to the conclusion that Paul wasn't all that hip on tongues in church...vs18, vs 19,vs22, vs,27, vs.28

Now lets compare some other text:

ICorin. 14:9-10 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without significance.

Massech Sopherim, cap.I.hal.6 If any write the holy books in any language, or in any character, yet he shall not read them (publicly in the synagogue) unless they be written in Hebrew".


Does anybody here agree that the gentiles would not be able to understand Hebrew?

I think that the problem they were having in Corinth was an abuse of tongues..because Paul goes on with instruction...

You have to know that Paul was writing to a church with some serious issues... and that these folks had already recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Kutless

that is not what I'm saying. vs.4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself"

Thats because he understood what he was saying.

"He that prophesieth edifieth the church"

because they understood what he was saying.

In looking at the reading I would see how somebody would come to the conclusion that Paul wasn't all that hip on tongues in church...vs18, vs 19,vs22, vs,27, vs.28

Now lets compare some other text:

ICorin. 14:9-10 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without significance.

Massech Sopherim, cap.I.hal.6 If any write the holy books in any language, or in any character, yet he shall not read them (publicly in the synagogue) unless they be written in Hebrew".


Does anybody here agree that the gentiles would not be able to understand Hebrew?

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Here are the verses I was referring to. Paul told the man who spoke in an unknown tongue if there is no interpreter to speak to himself and to God [in an unknown tongue]. My point is if this unknown tongue is, as you as saying, known to the one who speaks it, then how is this man edified by speaking in an unknown tongue to himself? He already knows the language. He would therefore be speaking to himself words he understands.

This would contradict what Paul said in vs 14.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Now lets compare some other text:

ICorin. 14:9-10 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without significance.

Massech Sopherim, cap.I.hal.6 If any write the holy books in any language, or in any character, yet he shall not read them (publicly in the synagogue) unless they be written in Hebrew".


Does anybody here agree that the gentiles would not be able to understand Hebrew?

I would agree that most gentiles would not be able to understand Hebrew, the language that the scriptures were written and would need a translation into their own tongue, the Septuaguint: The first translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, made into popular Greek before the Christian era.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

Just as the Targums were written in Aramaic and used to instruct in the word of God for those Jews who lost touch with Hebrew d/t the dispersion, maybe the Septuaguint was used in the same way for Greek speaking Jews.

Recensions
The Greek version, known as the Septuagint, welcomed by the Alexandrian Jews, spread quickly throughout the countries in which Greek was spoken; it was utilized by different writers, and supplanted the original text in liturgical services. Philo of Alexandria used it in his writings and looked on the translators as inspired Prophets; it was finally received even by the Jews of Palestine, and was employed notably by Josephus, the Palestinian Jewish historian. We know also that the writers of the New Testament made use of it, borrowing from it most of their citations; it became the Old Testament of the Church and was so highly esteemed by the early Christians that several writers and Fathers declared it to be inspired. The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

Same source as above.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Romans 8:25-27

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

GROANINGS- in Strongs it says......'stenagmos'....a sigh

Could it also that its not talking about tongues at all? But rather that place you get were nothing but groans come out?

I've been there. I also witnessed my Bro-in-law there one day at the alter right after his divorce. He was groaning and grunting from way down deep. I thought his guts were going to come up.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Kutless

GROANINGS- in Strongs it says......'stenagmos'....a sigh

Could it also that its not talking about tongues at all? But rather that place you get were nothing but groans come out?

I've been there. I also witnessed my Bro-in-law there one day at the alter right after his divorce. He was groaning and grunting from way down deep. I thought his guts were going to come up.

The groanings cannot be uttered. Romans 8 is not dealing with tongues because on the day of Pentecost they all spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Here are the verses I was referring to. Paul told the man who spoke in an unknown tongue if there is no interpreter to speak to himself and to God [in an unknown tongue]. My point is if this unknown tongue is, as you as saying, known to the one who speaks it, then how is this man edified by speaking in an unknown tongue to himself? He already knows the language. He would therefore be speaking to himself words he understands.

This would contradict what Paul said in vs 14.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

I am having a hard time deciphering what you are trying to say here.....sorry.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Kutless

I am having a hard time deciphering what you are trying to say here.....sorry.

If I understand you correctly you are saying the unknown tongue in 1Cor 14 is Hebrew which a minister when reading from the books of the Law and Prophets would be speaking when the saints are gathered together, then the minister would translate the unknown tongue [Hebrew]for the congregation to understand. This does not agree with what Paul is saying in this verse:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is saying he does not understand the unknown tongue he is praying in, even though he is an Hebrew of the Hebrews. Paul knows Hebrew and yet admits when he speaks in tongues in prayer he doesn't understand what he is saying. The unknown tongue in this chapt cannot possibly be Hebrew as you are saying it is otherwise Paul would understand it when he speaks in this unknown tongue in prayer.

Is this more clear?

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If I understand you correctly you are saying the unknown tongue in 1Cor 14 is Hebrew which a minister when reading from the books of the Law and Prophets would be speaking when the saints are gathered together, then the minister would translate the unknown tongue [Hebrew]for the congregation to understand. This does not agree with what Paul is saying in this verse:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is saying he does not understand the unknown tongue he is praying in, even though he is an Hebrew of the Hebrews. Paul knows Hebrew and yet admits when he speaks in tongues in prayer he doesn't understand what he is saying. The unknown tongue in this chapt cannot possibly be Hebrew as you are saying it is otherwise Paul would understand it when he speaks in this unknown tongue in prayer.

Is this more clear?

absolutely!! Great point!