Why I Am A Futurist

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I notice that in mention "the other thread" you did not address the point that was actually made. I don't know yet if you responded over there as I haven't been back to that section yet, but for the sake of the readers here I will repeat it.

The word translated "shortly" in Rev 1:1 is the same as that which is translated "speedily" in the parable of the unjust judge in Luke 18.

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luk 18:2
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

Luk 18:3
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

Luk 18:4
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Luk 18:5
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

Luk 18:6
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

Luk 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

First of all, the purpose of the parable is to teach the value of patience and perseverance. The context therefore is the context of promises coming to pass in spite of long delay (hence the Lord's words about not "fainting").

Verse 7 tells us how God's elect cry day and night to God, and that God may indeed "bear long" with them. There is clearly a long delay described between the commencement of the crying out to God and the Lord answering their prayers. God WILL intervene even though it appears no answers are forthcoming for quite some time (long enough to make it likely that the elect would faint).

But more importantly, Christ says truly God will avenge his elect "en tachos" (same term used in Rev 1:1). It is here translated "speedily" and clearly does not mean "soon to be done" in reference to the start of the praying, but shortly or speedily in reference to the avenging itself.

What this proves is that en tachos is NOT subject to only one, preteristic, meaning. Again, Jesus used that term in the context of the consummation after a long delay of expectancy and waiting. If the preterist's faulty understanding of Greek were correct, then Jesus would be saying people ought not to faint because God will avenge them soon after they begin crying to him, no delay needed. Which makes no sense if the elect would be likely to faint from lack of perseverance, for perseverance and patience would not be needed.

Furthermore, the Lord even connects these ideas to his coming when he concludes "Nevertheless when the son of man comes will he find faith on the earth?" The Lord drew a parallel between his teaching on the need for patience in prayer, and the need for patience in regard to his coming. This parallel simply cannot fit within a preteristic scheme of eschatology.

Peter likewise addresses the same subject in the same way.

I disagree. Verse 8 means he won't wait long as with the unjust judge. I stand by my conclusion.

[mfblume]

Jamieson, Fauset brown.
Luke 18:8

8. speedily--as if pained at the long delay, impatient for the destined moment to interpose. (Compare Pr 29:1.)


Clarke
Verse 8. He will avenge them speedily.] Or, He will do them justice speedily-, instantly, in a trice. 1. Because he has promised it; and 2. Because he is inclined to do it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree. Verse 8 means he won't wait long as with the unjust judge. I stand by my conclusion.

Jesus said "though God bear long with them". I'll stand by his words.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said "though God bear long with them". I'll stand by his words.

You're misreading and missing the understanding of that phrase. God bearing long with them is not us bearing long with God.

[mfblume]

7 ISV Won't God grant his chosen people justice when they cry out to him day and night? Is he slow to help them?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jerusalem is Babylon in Rev. 18???



Joel 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.


Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Does Jerusalem in the above passages, represent the same city being PERMANENTLY annihilated in the lower passage?


Revelation 18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Didn't want it forgotten....Jerusalem is Babylon of Rev.18?

Not likely, unless God has a lying problem.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're misreading and missing the understanding of that phrase. God bearing long with them is not us bearing long with God.

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't say anything about us bearing long with God.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't say anything about us bearing long with God.

Esaias, I'd like your opinion on this...

Heb. 10:37

For "in a very long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.

For "in a long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.


For "in a while the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-nope.



For "in a very little while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-yep.



What is the purpose of the "very little while" in this verse?
(Even asside from the "will NOT delay".)

And..if you received that epistle 2000 years ago, what would you think?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't say anything about us bearing long with God.

Let me clarify. If anyone is bearing long with a long delay involved before prayer is answered, then it is us bearing long with God, not God bearing with us. The very speaks of God bearing long with us. How does God bear with us if it's us who are waiting? So' if it's God bearing with us it's nothing to do with us waiting for God to answer prayer. In other words, your interpretation can't fit from what I read in the verse.

[good samaritan]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

It really doesn't matter what we think about scripture saying quickly, speedily, etc. because God's watch works different than ours. Once again that is why I don't lock in anything other than the Lord will return and there will be a judgement. Sure I believe in the fulfillment of all the prophecies in scripture, but I don't know which has and has not occurred. It's all just mostly speculation. One thing I am sure of is that the resurrection of the Church has not occurred because I am still here and I don't plan it going without me. lol.