born of water

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Sean, I think where we disagree is in our perspective of water baptism. You view water baptism as being the wheel in the middle of the wheel in new testament salvation. I believe the thing that everything revolves around is faith in the Saviour who shed his blood for our sins. Of course, this faith must be accompanied with calling on the name of Jesus in repentance, and that is to be followed by water baptism according to the new covenant plan. I've already said, I don't view water baptism as optional, it's an essential part of the new covenant, and the sin issue isn't dealt with in its finality until one goes through the waters of baptism in Jesus name.
However, I see everything from repentance, to water baptism, to being filled with the Holy Ghost revolving around placing our faith in Jesus. By faith we look towards Calvary trusting that Jesus's blood is sufficient to save us from our sins. I believe that God showed us that this faith is the one most essential element and is what is most important in Acts 10 when he filled Cornelius's household with the Spirit, because they believed in Jesus and called on his name. Peter confirmed this in

Acts 15:8-9 "And God which knoweth the hearts bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

He's saying God bare witness to their faith in Christ and he responded by filling them with the Holy Ghost. He forgave them of their sins, There was an application of the blood, there was a purifying (according to Acts 15:9) of the inner man, and they entered into the Holy of Holies being filled with the Spirit. They became Sons of God and the life of Christ came to reside in them. However, they were incomplete until they were baptized in Jesus name. I'm not going to try to define what incomplete may or may not mean. I think this is a mistake we make trying to determine exactly who has what at what point in their experience with the Lord. I do feel comfortable saying they were incomplete, because there is sufficient scripture that tells us that water baptism is part of the new testament plan of salvation. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, St Mark 16:16)

Amen, your quotation of Mark 16 kinda explains it all...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(I have never in my 35 years as a believer, seen an unbeliever get baptized)

Folks that REFUSE water baptism, and say that all they must do is believe, excluding water baptism, dont believe enough to be baptized and shall ultimately be damned.

I did not say that...the Lord Jesus said that!

[shazeep]

really, where?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Sean

Amen, your quotation of Mark 16 kinda explains it all...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(I have never in my 35 years as a believer, seen an unbeliever get baptized)

Folks that REFUSE water baptism, and say that all they must do is believe, excluding water baptism, dont believe enough to be baptized and shall ultimately be damned.
I did not say that...the Lord Jesus said that!

YES, you DID say that...quoting the Lord Jesus!

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Sean

May I ask you this?

Do you believe that a man is saved before he is baptized, if he recieves the Spirit?

Yes.

Do you believe that a man is saved after he is baptized, if he didn't receive the Spirit?

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Sean

The Spirit just fills those that have not yet been baptized, in order to influence them to do so.

This quote is minimizing the operation of the spirit... it "just fills those" to influence them to be baptized? You don't believe they're saved at that point even though the Lord thought enough of them to give them His Spirit?

You can't be spiritually alive and simultaneously spiritually dead.

[good samaritan]

The word "saved" is past tense and it isn't really correct to say I'm saved until I heard Him say well done. Repentance, Jesus name baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost isn't a magic formula, but is part of our new birth. It is necessary. It was the apostles doctrine and this message has been the common ground for apostolic churches. We may differ on holiness standards and certain church practices, but it is surprising to me that this up for criticism. Maybe a baptist web site or other trinity denominations, but not among apostolics.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

This is known as Assemblicostal

You've made this accusation before, brother.

You obviously do not know Assembly of God doctrine or you would not make such a claim.

The AoG believes that water baptism is a "post-salvation" experience. I believe it normally precedes salvation. The AoG believes we get baptized because our sins have been forgiven. I believe we are baptized, as Peter said, in order that our sins may be forgiven. The AoG teaches that the Spirit baptism is subsequent to the birth of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit baptism IS the new birth of the Spirit.

Actually, it is you who sounds a bit AoG with your previous statement.......

The Spirit just fills those that have not yet been baptized, in order to influence them to do so.

With that statement you demean the Spirit baptism from being the new birth of the Spirit imparting a new nature to just something that is given to enhance our walk with God, to bring deeper understanding, etc...just like the AoG teaches.

Just curious. Do you consider the "unbaptized" to include Holy Ghost filled AoG members who were baptized in the titles?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Yes.

Do you believe that a man is saved after he is baptized, if he didn't receive the Spirit?

Nope.....

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

This quote is minimizing the operation of the spirit... it "just fills those" to influence them to be baptized? You don't believe they're saved at that point even though the Lord thought enough of them to give them His Spirit?

You can't be spiritually alive and simultaneously spiritually dead.

The "old man " is crucified when AND ONLY when we are baptized. They must be baptized to be crucified with Christ....

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.



If you are NOT baptized, you are NOT dead to sin, nor are you FREE from sin.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You've made this accusation before, brother.

You obviously do not know Assembly of God doctrine or you would not make such a claim.

I see SWAGGART and his cohorts(from the A/G) saving folks with a Spirit infilling only these days, without being baptized. The A/G has dropped the baptism requirement to get folks saved by Spirit only...Hardly anyone these days tells folks that baptism is part of the plan of salvation. They do this to get folks to support their TV program and save them without touching them personally.


The AoG believes that water baptism is a "post-salvation" experience. I believe it normally precedes salvation. The AoG believes we get baptized because our sins have been forgiven. I believe we are baptized, as Peter said, in order that our sins may be forgiven. The AoG teaches that the Spirit baptism is subsequent to the birth of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit baptism IS the new birth of the Spirit.

Actually, it is you who sounds a bit AoG with your previous statement.......

No, you are thinking about the OLD A/G doctrine.




With that statement you demean the Spirit baptism from being the new birth of the Spirit imparting a new nature to just something that is given to enhance our walk with God, to bring deeper understanding, etc...just like the AoG teaches.

Just curious. Do you consider the "unbaptized" to include Holy Ghost filled AoG members who were baptized in the titles?

That is a high probability...The Catholics are even baptized in the titles, both babies AND adult converts. I insist on them being re-baptized upon conversion. I insist that the baptismal candidate listen carefully of the way they are baptized, to be sure for themselves the name of Jesus was spoken during the baptism.

I mean, lets' face it...some folks say, "who cares what was said during baptism"....Those folks are BIG TIME gamblers with their salvation.