Where do the lost spend eternity? Really!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

First we was sparring but I sense something here so our sparring is over I hear something deeper so now instead of talking to you I am going to talk to Him about you.

Aw, man, just when the sparring was getting interesting!

How about if I ask what you meant when you told Michlow "to Hell you will go" if she doesn't have a preacher in her life?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...0252#post80252

You have explained to me that saying Bishop Patterson "died lost" did not mean he necessarily would go to hell -- that's for God to decide. Why would that principle not apply to Michlow, also?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So you just made it up? I can honestly say when I first had this experience I was not making up anything. It was so profound. In fact I was expecting it for more than 6 months when it occured. If I wanted to make it up I would have done it the first week and be done with it.

I don't doubt though that you faked it. I am sure others have.

My experience seemed profound, too. And I was expecting it for some time, also. Here's how it worked for me (not saying anythng about you or anyone else, just me, OK?): I was praying for the baptism for some time, at altar calls etc. Then, at kids camp one evening, after a rousing sermon, and lots of encouragement at the altar, and with the right mood, and when I got up enough nerve, I just started blurting out whatever came to my head. As instructed. It felt great! I finally "got it"! And once it started, it kept going. New syllables popped out. (Actually, it was mostly "words" I had heard others use.) I felt light-headed, almost dizzy. Folks around me were pleased, and praising the Lord. When it was over, I was on cloud nine.

But I was just following instructions. "Say whatever comes to mind, even if it makes no sense" etc. It was mimicry. And the feelings were nothing more than excitement. In the years that followed, my tongues got better with practice. I've seen some (not all) praying in tongues glance around, to see if anyone was watching. I may have done the same, not sure.

I've heard messages and interpretations that are way different in length. (Yes, I know that doesn't prove anything. Maybe tongues are more (or less) efficient than English.) And the intrepretations are almost always just simple exhortations and encouragements (not that there's anything wrong with that!), in King James English. Again, doesn't prove anything, but it's just weird.

There was a particular person who would give the exact same repeated phrases for every "message", but the interpretations were always different!

OK, none of this proves that it is always fake, of even that what I thought was fake really was. Maybe there is some fake and some real. But why is there almost never (seemingly) any discernment? I've heard about pastors calling someone down, but it seems to be rare, and I've never seen it happen. (I suspect that those cases were when the tongues weren't good enough, probably due to inexperience.)

What is the point of tongues, whether it's "initial evidence" or prayer language, if it's so easy to fake? It doesn't do its job as evidence very well, that being the case.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

My experience seemed profound, too. And I was expecting it for some time, also. Here's how it worked for me (not saying anythng about you or anyone else, just me, OK?): I was praying for the baptism for some time, at altar calls etc. Then, at kids camp one evening, after a rousing sermon, and lots of encouragement at the altar, and with the right mood, and when I got up enough nerve, I just started blurting out whatever came to my head.

That is quite different from mine. I did not blurt out anything myself from my head or whatever. In fact I kept TRYING to speak in english and something else came out. My lips were trembling a mile a minute on their own and I felt almost like I was spectator in that event.

As instructed. It felt great! I finally "got it"! And once it started, it kept going. New syllables popped out. (Actually, it was mostly "words" I had heard others use.) I felt light-headed, almost dizzy. Folks around me were pleased, and praising the Lord. When it was over, I was on cloud nine.

Sounds like you felt accepted, but perhaps not really filled

But I was just following instructions. "Say whatever comes to mind, even if it makes no sense" etc. It was mimicry. And the feelings were nothing more than excitement. In the years that followed, my tongues got better with practice. I've seen some (not all) praying in tongues glance around, to see if anyone was watching. I may have done the same, not sure.

I am glad nobody told me to just say whatever comes to mind. I never tell anyone to do that and if I saw someone else in my church do that I would correct them and tell the pastor

I've heard messages and interpretations that are way different in length. (Yes, I know that doesn't prove anything. Maybe tongues are more (or less) efficient than English.)

2 things, it's the gift of interpretation, not translation. And very often what is said on one language can be translated into another in fewer words or may need more words, if you have ever paid much attention to someone translating

And the intrepretations are almost always just simple exhortations and encouragements (not that there's anything wrong with that!), in King James English. Again, doesn't prove anything, but it's just weird.

I don't know that I have heard an interpretation in King James English, but as for exhortations...Paul said that was the reason for these gifts...to edify. Though I am not sure someone doing it in King James English is a problem either....God uses us...He uses what we got

There was a particular person who would give the exact same repeated phrases for every "message", but the interpretations were always different!

Right, like I said it's an interpretation. The important part is the interpretation.

OK, none of this proves that it is always fake, of even that what I thought was fake really was. Maybe there is some fake and some real. But why is there almost never (seemingly) any discernment?

Who says there is never discernment? And just because there is not discernment all the time what does that show? Men are fallible, we do not always dwell on the mountain tops of faith.

I've heard about pastors calling someone down, but it seems to be rare, and I've never seen it happen. (I suspect that those cases were when the tongues weren't good enough, probably due to inexperience.)

Not sure I know what you mean, but I don't see how this means the gifts or tongues are fake

What is the point of tongues, whether it's "initial evidence" or prayer language, if it's so easy to fake? It doesn't do its job as evidence very well, that being the case.

What's the point of Christianity if it can be faked?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not sure I know what you mean, but I don't see how this means the gifts or tongues are fake

I meant that if someone is faking tongues, and they do a good job (it sounds good), they get away with it. If they don't do a good job, they get called on it (if then). But you're right, it doesn't prove anything, even if I'm right. But it just seems to me that a supernatural manifestation like tongues should be somehow verifiable. Not necessarily unfakable, but when it is faked, there should be some indication. Otherwise, how can it be considered initial evidence? Why does there even need to be initial evidence, if not to tell others that this person has indeed received the Holy Ghost? Or can you tell a fake from the real thing (in someone else)?

And in that regard, I believe that there is more important evidence of the Holy Spirit's work. Namely, the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. That, after all, is what really counts in the Christian life, is it not?

What's the point of Christianity if it can be faked?

Well, I'm not sure how Christianity could be faked, per se. But I think I get your point. I think you mean that it doesn't matter if tongues can be faked: they are still valid and serve a purpose, when they are not fake. Is that right? (I'm honestly not trying to put words in your mouth, really! Just want to see if I understand you.)

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Timmy

My experience seemed profound, too. And I was expecting it for some time, also. Here's how it worked for me (not saying anythng about you or anyone else, just me, OK?): I was praying for the baptism for some time, at altar calls etc. Then, at kids camp one evening, after a rousing sermon, and lots of encouragement at the altar, and with the right mood, and when I got up enough nerve, I just started blurting out whatever came to my head. As instructed. It felt great! I finally "got it"! And once it started, it kept going. New syllables popped out. (Actually, it was mostly "words" I had heard others use.) I felt light-headed, almost dizzy. Folks around me were pleased, and praising the Lord. When it was over, I was on cloud nine.

But I was just following instructions. "Say whatever comes to mind, even if it makes no sense" etc. It was mimicry. And the feelings were nothing more than excitement. In the years that followed, my tongues got better with practice. I've seen some (not all) praying in tongues glance around, to see if anyone was watching. I may have done the same, not sure.

I've heard messages and interpretations that are way different in length. (Yes, I know that doesn't prove anything. Maybe tongues are more (or less) efficient than English.) And the intrepretations are almost always just simple exhortations and encouragements (not that there's anything wrong with that!), in King James English. Again, doesn't prove anything, but it's just weird.

There was a particular person who would give the exact same repeated phrases for every "message", but the interpretations were always different!

OK, none of this proves that it is always fake, of even that what I thought was fake really was. Maybe there is some fake and some real. But why is there almost never (seemingly) any discernment? I've heard about pastors calling someone down, but it seems to be rare, and I've never seen it happen. (I suspect that those cases were when the tongues weren't good enough, probably due to inexperience.)

What is the point of tongues, whether it's "initial evidence" or prayer language, if it's so easy to fake? It doesn't do its job as evidence very well, that being the case.

Timmy that is why I abhor this assembly line mentality where numbers mean more than experience. I would stop a person in a New York's second if they told the seeker to say anything except to Praise Him. I think it is insulting and demeaning to God-seeker-church. The seeker tells us they have recieved it we NEVER tell them. I apologize for you bad experience there is NO excuse for this, and you folks reading this that are enamored with this numbers type HGB this should be a warning!
Now concerning the tongues and interpetations I do not have any idea whether the ones you heard was real or not. But your 'logic' is faulty in having heard many interpeters interpet for missionaries and other speakers the lines are different in the original tongue spoken in and the interpeting tongue sometimes much different in length. So your point is bogus there.
Yes it can be faked but the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in use but have you thrown away all your $20s I seriously doubt it?
Timmy I am praying for you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Well, I'm not sure how Christianity could be faked, per se. But I think I get your point. I think you mean that it doesn't matter if tongues can be faked: they are still valid and serve a purpose, when they are not fake. Is that right? (I'm honestly not trying to put words in your mouth, really! Just want to see if I understand you.)

Even the bible reports there are fakes, fake Christians, fake prophets. Tongues, real tongues serve a purpose.

BTW I am curious, you were told to say what came into your mind...are you saying there were words or sounds coming into your mind and you repeated them?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Even the bible reports there are fakes, fake Christians, fake prophets. Tongues, real tongues serve a purpose.

BTW I am curious, you were told to say what came into your mind...are you saying there were words or sounds coming into your mind and you repeated them?

Is there any significance to that??

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

gollywoggles....weren't those the cute little creatures on that tim allen star trek spoof that turned on one of their injured own and ate him?

no, gollywoggles creep around at night and rip-off car doors.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

Is there any significance to that??

He said he faked tongues and was told to just say whatever comes to mind...Im sorry but I've never in my life had random non-words and sounds come to my mind and just repeated them. He says he just repeated whatever came to his mind and that was how he "faked" tongues.

So if I had wanted to fake tongues and someone told me to just say what came to mind, I would have started speaking in english because I think in english. Most people just don't have random sounds spitting through their mind so they can repeat them and fake tongues....am I right?

Could it have really been the Holy Ghost? Did Timmy really just say whatever was coming to his mind OR since he says he faked it, maybe he just made up words of his own volition and misunderstood what the person was saying to him to do. They were not saying "make up some words" perhaps, but maybe were saying "if you hear different words in your mind, repeat those" and he misunderstood that to mean "just make up random sounds and spit them out"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

no, gollywoggles creep around at night and rip-off car doors.

Ah. BTW How was your mothers day? Was it as boring as mine?