The catching away

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree the here and now is nothing compared to what we shall know. However, Jesus did say the kingdom simply will never be seen. That is all I was trying to say. Since Millennialism teaches a physical throne in earth and Kingdom in literal Israel of the middle east, I think it errs greatly and conflicts with what Jesus said.

Everything will indeed be in His Kingdom, but I believe this is after the resurrection/rapture and after the white throne. The only problem I have is that people who claim a millennium is to come, also claim the kingdom is physical and that no one is a king with Christ yet until then. That means they will lose their opportunity NOW to wreak havoc against the devil. And that is what the devil wants! When we die and go to glory and heaven, we cannot influence the world down here for His kingdom. And if we think we are not kings now, then we will miss God's mandate for the Kingdom to come in earth as it is in heaven right now.

There does not need to be a heated discussion. I have chatted will scores of people without a hearted discussion. And these things need to be discussed. It either leaves us looking to nothing but the future to be kings and affect this world, or realizing we are to do so now. It is a serious issue, and no small matter.

I have to add my two cents here, this is just one of the resons I see and agree with Mike on the Kingdom of God being in the world today. We are not to just get people saved we are to influence the world for the better. Scripture after scripture tell us satan has been defeated and has no more power than what we give him, because of the cross. We need to understand our identity and who we are. We are children of the Great King which makes us kings and priest in this life, not the life to come.

[Godsdrummer]

Let me give a understanding that came to me in prayer one day last year. We were in service and God was moving, or the preacher was preaching when this thought came to me that I had to open my bible right then and check out what the spirit was prompting to my heart.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I realized this was the ministry of the church today. read these verses carefully for there are still nations that need healing. And there are still those whose name is not written in the lambs book of life.

[easter]

I understand how Jesus Christ rules and reigns in the hearts of the believer and that is how the kingdom of God is within in us.
However I see Revelation as future events and you see Revelation as being fulfilled with the exception of the great white throne Judgement.
Also I'd like to add that we are still in the flesh and I believe we are the Lords servants and not kings and rulers.Without the Lord we can't even rule our own flesh.However we are to carry the gospel to a lost and dying world that is why we are called the servants of God.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Let me give a understanding that came to me in prayer one day last year. We were in service and God was moving, or the preacher was preaching when this thought came to me that I had to open my bible right then and check out what the spirit was prompting to my heart.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree
of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I realized this was the ministry of the church today. read these verses carefully for there are still nations that need healing. And there are still those whose name is not written in the lambs book of life.

Could it be the New Jerusalem, the city built by God. The Highway of Holi-
ness, the STREET(1) of gold and the River of Life, the Holy Ghost flowing from the the throne (Seat of God), through the city, healing all those who will come and drink of the Water of Life FREELY!
The New True Israel of God coming out of the wilderness (of sin) and entering into the Promised Land, the Church of the Living God. The Church that Jesus said HE would build.
Every thing we need is available in the New Jerusalem, IF we receive it by obedient faith.

[Falla39]

To enter into the City (Presence of God) where the healing waters flow, one must first
be made clean. No unclean thing could enter there. The highway of Holiness is the path-
way into the Presence of The Holy GOD.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Falla39

To enter into the City (Presence of God) where the healing waters flow, one must first
be made clean. No unclean thing could enter there. The highway of Holiness is the path-
way into the Presence of The Holy GOD.

This is a wonderful thing,yes?
However I believe when we get to glory we will walk on streets of pure Gold and God will be with us.
In this life we must step out in faith.
In the eternal life we will step out onto streets of gold.
We will then be the sons and daughters of the most high God.Yes we are the sons and daughters of the Father now but we are in a country that is not our own,a foreigner but then we will be home and we will then receive our reward.Can you imagine instead of going in your prayer closet to talk to the Father, you can take a stroll in glory and find the Father and then speak face to face!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I have to add my two cents here, this is just one of the resons I see and agree with Mike on the Kingdom of God being in the world today. We are not to just get people saved we are to influence the world for the better. Scripture after scripture tell us satan has been defeated and has no more power than what we give him, because of the cross. We need to understand our identity and who we are. We are children of the Great King which makes us kings and priest in this life, not the life to come.

Amen. Rev 1:5-6 says the same blood that washed away our sins (and that is fulfilled and a past tense issue to the saved)is the blood that HATH MADE (not going to make) us kings and priests. We are seated with Him in heavenly places already according to Ep 2:5-6. We are His servants, yes,, in our relation to Him. But in relation to the world and the devil we are kings! We tread under serpents and scorpions.

But people cannot believe this since they do not physically see us on thrones. Do they see angels? I haven't, but I still believe they are around us. I believe what Rev 1:5-6 says. He already made us kings and priests.

Eph 1 states that He was raised from the dead to sit at the right hand throne. And chapter 2 says I am seated together with him right now. Satan would love for us to sit back and not see our kingship. For then he would get away with so much more than he would had we known who we are in Christ and trampled him down.

Heb 12:22 says we already are come to the heavenly City Jerusalem. Already! Gold represents deity in the bible. And golden streets represent a DIVINELY LED WALK.

Jesus said, in John 7:37-39, that if we thirst we can come to the rivers of living water. Rev 22:17 says the same thing about the river of life. If we thirst, we can come and drink of the waters of life freely. This is the HOLY GHOST! Jesus interpreted that for us in John 7!

There is not going to be a physical city. We know this is symbolic because Heb 12:22 says we already came the Heavenly Jerusalem. John heard the angel tell him the bride of Christ is the city. Hello, CITY! WE ARE THE BRIDE AND THE CITY!

Jesus is not marrying a set of high rise apartment buildings. This is biblical imagery for the CHURCH. As the city came down from Heaven, this church is glorious and is from heaven, not of the earth. Rev 1:1 said the book of Revelation was SIGNIFIED. SIGNS telling the message.

But the real kicker is that the blood of Jesus ALREADY MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS. HATH MADE is past tense. And we are ALREADY SEATED with Him in heavenly places.

We know Jesus is on the throne. He is at the right hand throne.

And look what it says:

Zechariah 6:13 KJV Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

According to this, he is PRIEST ON THAT THRONE. Now, we also know He is High priest now! And if He is priest while on the throne, that means he is on the throne as well now. Some people think He is not yet on the throne, and they await the kingdom that they can see. The problem with that is that Jesus said the kingdom is not something you will ever be able to see. It is here NOW. He is KING now, and we are seated together with Him as kings and priests.

Disp futuriism teaches Jesus is ONLY PRIEST NOW and NOT KING. But the bible says HE IS PRIEST WHILE ON THE THRONE AS KING. So He must be king now, too!

Revelation 1:5-6 KJV And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

HATH MADE means it's a done deal.

Satan would love for us to throw this into the future. Paul never said the hope of Israel was a millennium with a physical kingdom in the middle east. The only hope of Israel Paul preached was CHRIST RIGHT NOW.

The Jews hated Paul's preaching and he called it the hope of Israel that he preached, that caused him to be imprisoned by the Jews. Jews would love dispensationalism, since it does not say the hope of Israel is the Lord in the church today, but a physical kingdom. Dispensationalists teach the same thing today that the Pharisees loved and taught in the first century. A physical kingdom for Israel. But when Paul preached the true Kingdom and the true hope of Israel, they hated him and bound him in chains for it.

GO PAUL!!!

[easter]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. Rev 1:5-6 says the same blood that washed away our sins (and that is fulfilled and a past tense issue to the saved)is the blood that HATH MADE (not going to make) us kings and priests. We are seated with Him in heavenly places already according to Ep 2:5-6. We are His servants, yes,, in our relation to Him. But in relation to the world and the devil we are kings! We tread under serpents and scorpions.

But people cannot believe this since they do not physically see us on thrones. Do they see angels? I haven't, but I still believe they are around us. I believe what Rev 1:5-6 says. He already made us kings and priests.

Eph 1 states that He was raised from the dead to sit at the right hand throne. And chapter 2 says I am seated together with him right now. Satan would love for us to sit back and not see our kingship. For then he would get away with so much more than he would had we known who we are in Christ and trampled him down.

Heb 12:22 says we already are come to the heavenly City Jerusalem. Already! Gold represents deity in the bible. And golden streets represent a DIVINELY LED WALK.

Jesus said, in John 7:37-39, that if we thirst we can come to the rivers of living water. Rev 22:17 says the same thing about the river of life. If we thirst, we can come and drink of the waters of life freely. This is the HOLY GHOST! Jesus interpreted that for us in John 7!

There is not going to be a physical city. We know this is symbolic because Heb 12:22 says we already came the Heavenly Jerusalem. John heard the angel tell him the bride of Christ is the city. Hello, CITY! WE ARE THE BRIDE AND THE CITY!

Jesus is not marrying a set of high rise apartment buildings. This is biblical imagery for the CHURCH. As the city came down from Heaven, this church is glorious and is from heaven, not of the earth. Rev 1:1 said the book of Revelation was SIGNIFIED. SIGNS telling the message.

But the real kicker is that the blood of Jesus ALREADY MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS. HATH MADE is past tense. And we are ALREADY SEATED with Him in heavenly places.

We know Jesus is on the throne. He is at the right hand throne.

And look what it says:

Zechariah 6:13 KJV Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

According to this, he is PRIEST ON THAT THRONE. Now, we also know He is High priest now! And if He is priest while on the throne, that means he is on the throne as well now. Some people think He is not yet on the throne, and they await the kingdom that they can see. The problem with that is that Jesus said the kingdom is not something you will ever be able to see. It is here NOW. He is KING now, and we are seated together with Him as kings and priests.

Disp futuriism teaches Jesus is ONLY PRIEST NOW and NOT KING. But the bible says HE IS PRIEST WHILE ON THE THRONE AS KING. So He must be king now, too!

Revelation 1:5-6 KJV And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

HATH MADE means it's a done deal.

Satan would love for us to throw this into the future. Paul never said the hope of Israel was a millennium with a physical kingdom in the middle east. The only hope of Israel Paul preached was CHRIST RIGHT NOw
The Jews hated Paul's preaching and he called it the hope of Israel that he preached, that caused him to be imprisoned by the Jews. Jews would love dispensationalism, since it does not say the hope of Israel is the Lord in the church today, but a physical kingdom. Dispensationalists teach the same thing today that the Pharisees loved and taught in the first century. A physical kingdom for Israel. But when Paul preached the true Kingdom and the true hope of Israel, they hated him and bound him in chains for it.

GO PAUL!!!

Yes bro.Blume the hope of Israel is the Lord.Let's not forget the gentiles have been grafted in.After the catching away of the church,God will turn his eyes back to Israel and the Jew.After all the Jews are the apple of God's eye.
Paul was not bound in chains because of preaching the kingdom of God.Paul was chained for preaching the salvation through Jesus Christ as being the only way to the Father and for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the son of God.
There are some who may not be familiar with God's chosen people(Jews) because if you were,you would know the Jews would have no part of a dispensationalism teaching of Jesus Christ.Also Satan would have it no better for people to be naive into thinking he is already bound.
Israel has only been promised to the Jews.Let's not forget the gentile has been grafted in until the appointed time.
And "YOU ARE INCORRECT IN STATING THAT DISPENSATIONLIST TEACH THAT JESUS IS ONLY A PRIEST.JESUS WAS KING and is KING and will always be the KING of KINGS.
There is nothing more that I dislike is for someone to start using the tactic of calling anything they don't agree with a teaching of the Pharisees.This is grasping straws in order to push your belief. You believe that a physical kingdom is a teaching of the Pharisees because they sought a King on the line of king David to restore Israel to her former glory but where you have lost understanding is about the "NEW JERUSALEM" You have gotten caught up on the same line of thinking as a Pharisee, because you have no understanding of A NEW JERUSALEM.
Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City,the new Jerusalem,coming down out of Heaven from God,prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
The mistake the Pharisees made was looking to restore the Jerusalem here on earth and the mistake your making is believing there will never be a Jerusalem in which God's throne will be.Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,'Now the dwelling of God is with men,and he will live with them.They will be his people,and God himself will be with them and be their God.

[easter]

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out;and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God,WHICH IS THE NEW JERUSALEM,which cometh down out of heaven from my God;and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city,new Jerusalem coming down from God OUT OF HEAVEN,prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:10-23 This scripture here gives us a description and size of the New Jerusalem that is talked about in Revelation 21:2.

John seen the New Jerusalem.
Gold also represents...Eternity and God's Glory.I would say gold represents faith(refined) but our faith is more precious then gold.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

Yes bro.Blume the hope of Israel is the Lord.Let's not forget the gentiles have been grafted in.

Amen. We are grafted in to the olive tree and it was mercy that did it. And Romans 11 goes on to say that BY OUR MERCY shall the Jews return to Him again. So in the end everyone will have been saved by mercy! Not lineage of the flesh.

After the catching away of the church,God will turn his eyes back to Israel and the Jew.After all the Jews are the apple of God's eye.

This is where I strongly disagree with you. We do not have to get heated over it, but I really disagree with this statement. Let me explain why.

People who say this believe Ro 11:25-26 is teaching that idea. After the fullness of the Gentiles are come in, they believe this is the rapture. But it is isn't! Most scholars through the centuries, until 1830 when Dispensationalism was created, believed this passage actually meant that there will be a revival of gentiles and then through all those gentiles in the church, there will be a concerted effort to reach Israel, and there will be a revival of Jews getting saved. It is not that the rapture shall occur and then God turns to Israel. No.

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in IS NOT THE RAPTURE.

Read what Paul already said about Jews being lost and saved.

Romans 11:14-15 KJV If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (15) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

He said he was working to cause the Jews to be jealous of God's blessings on the gentiles so they might be saved. Verse 15 says they will be saved because of the efforts Paul made according to verse 14. Now, if the rapture had to occur before Jews could be saved, Paul would nto be provoking Jews to emulation in order for them to return to God! So the rpature has nothing to do with this.

And, like I said before, if the rapture is going to occur and then God shall turn to the Jews, then Paul's words in Romans 9 should have been replaced with something like, "With all the Jews lost today, it might seem like God's Promises to them are unfulfilled. But they are not unfulfilled! There will be a rapture of the gentile church, and the Lord shall then turn to the Jews!"

But that is not what Paul said. What he actually said was this: "With all the Jews lost today, it might seem like God's Promises to them are unfulfilled. But they are not unfulfilled! The "Israel" that God sees is not the "Israel" some people might think. Not all the people we think are Israel is Israel in God's eyes. The children counted for the seed are the children of promise. Just because someone is born by flesh into Israel does not mean God considers them to be Israel. The only Israelites whom God considers to be Israel are those BORN AGAIN in the church."

The church IS NOT GENTILE. Pretrib teaches that th4e church is gentile, and after the Gentile church is removed, then God shall go back to Israel. No. Ephesians says the CHURCH is GENTILE AND JEW in one body. No ifs, ands or buts.

Ephesians 2:14-18 KJV For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

If the church is for Jew and Gentile, why does God have to remove the church in order to save the Jews? No, Romans 11:25-26 is not teaching a rapture shall occur in order for God to turn back to Israel.

Paul was not bound in chains because of preaching the kingdom of God.Paul was chained for preaching the salvation through Jesus Christ as being the only way to the Father and for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the son of God.

THAT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

John 3:5 KJV Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 28:30-31 KJV And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, (31) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

That is the HOPE OF ISRAEL, not a millennium.

There are some who may not be familiar with God's chosen people(Jews) because if you were,you would know the Jews would have no part of a dispensationalism teaching of Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalism is error, I think. You must be trying to say the Jews have no part in THIS dispensation of Grace. But That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. God's CHOSEN PEOPLE are THE CHURCH now, not Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 KJV But ye (THE CHURCH) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

IT USED TO BE ISRAEL:

Exodus 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Jesus siad the KINGDOM was taken from them and He never said it would go back.

Matthew 21:43 KJV Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It is severe error to say the Jews and Israel have no part in God's plan for the church, since Ephesians says the CHURCH IS CREATED FOR JEW AND GENTILE both. God tore down the middle wall of partition. And the bible says that if we tear down the things we destroyed, we make ourselves transgressors. God is not going to be a transgressor and build the wall of partition that he destroyed.

Also Satan would have it no better for people to be naive into thinking he is already bound.

On the contrary! He wants people to think he is not bound, since the christians won't realize they CAN SPOIL HIM! You cannot spoil a strong man unless you first bind Him. Jesus was right! When Paul said the devil is spoiled that means he must already be bound!

Israel has only been promised to the Jews.Let's not forget the gentile has been grafted in until the appointed time.

The gentiles were grafted into the same tree Israel was on, but Israel was mostly broken off. Paul and James and John, etc., stayed on the tree. Israel has to come back to the same tree we're on. We're not going top taken off the tree and moved to heaven before Israel is grafted on. No. Israel needs to come to the same tree we're on while we're on it!

And "YOU ARE INCORRECT IN STATING THAT DISPENSATIONLIST TEACH THAT JESUS IS ONLY A PRIEST.JESUS WAS KING and is KING and will always be the KING of KINGS.

Please tell that to William Chalfant, UPC author and teacher, because He told me that Jesus is only PRIEST right now, and will not sit on the throne of David til the millennium. I am glad you disagree with him!

There is nothing more that I dislike is for someone to start using the tactic of calling anything they don't agree with a teaching of the Pharisees.

Sorry, it is not becuase I do nto like disp teaching that I call it something the Pharises believed. The pharisees literally believed in a physical kingdom. That is fact. And Disp teaches the same thing. I deny it totally. If I had only said this because I disagree with Disp., then you would be correct. But it is not based upon dislike. It is based upon fact of what Pharisees believed.

the PhariseesThis is grasping straws in order to push your belief. You believe that a physical kingdom is a teaching of the Pharisees because they sought a King on the line of king David to restore Israel to her former glory but where you have lost understanding is about the "NEW JERUSALEM" You have gotten caught up on the same line of thinking as a Pharisee, because you have no understanding of A NEW JERUSALEM.

NOw, you ar edoing the thing you dislike. Where does the Bible say a Pharisee is someone who does not understand New Jerusalem? That sounds more like your disagreement with me makles you say I believe like a Pharisee, which is the very thing you just said you hated in seeing people do.

Sorry, I believe Heb 12:22 says we are already come to heavenly Jerusalem. The bride is a CHURCH, not a set of buildings.

Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City,the new Jerusalem,coming down out of Heaven from God,prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The mistake the Pharisees made was looking to restore the Jerusalem here on earth and the mistake your making is believing there will never be a Jerusalem in which God's throne will be.

You do not know what I believe about this. There IS a Jerusalem where God's throne is. THE CHURCH!

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,'Now the dwelling of God is with men,and he will live with them.They will be his people,and God himself will be with them and be their God.

THIS IS THE CHURCH! Praise God!