Hell In Question

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila

Consider some things…

I Corinthians 15:22.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The implication from Paul here is one of equal comparisons. In Adam “all” die. No exceptions. This extends to all of mankind. And then this is put on equal comparison with Christ…in Christ shall “all” be made alive. For this to make any the sense the two have to be comparably equal. Else Paul would have to have truly said, “…in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall some be made alive.” If “all” doesn’t mean “all” without any exception in both clauses, Paul’s comparing apples to oranges.

Consider also what Christ said…

John 12:32.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Did he mean “all” or not? Do we take him literally? Do we trust that he is able to accomplish what he set out to accomplish?

All IN CHRIST shall be made alive.

Have you forgotten what it means to be IN CHRIST?

If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation....2 Cor. 5:17

1 Cor. 15 is all about the RESURRECTION of those in Christ. Read it from beginning to end you will hopefully be enlightened.

When Jesus said he will draw ALL MEN to himself he means ALL NATIONS as opposed to just the Jews.

How do we know this? Because Paul tells us that not everyone is called.

22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1 Cor. 1:22-26

Note verse 26. This shows us everyone is not called. Verse 24 implies the same.

Individuals will be drawn/called out of every tribe and tongue of men. But not all individuals of each.

Ultimate Rec also fails to take seriously that Yeshua understood that a very small minority would find the WAY TO LIFE.

The UR people always say God would be weak if he did not save everyone. Yeshua said this without apology.

23: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:23-25

The Lord did not make some nice speech about why God would not be glorified if he did not save all. Instead he admonishes them to STRIVE TO ENTER lest they perish! He confirms what the one asking the question wanted to know. FEW WILL BE SAVED. STRIVE that you may be one of them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All IN CHRIST shall be made alive.

Have you forgotten what it means to be IN CHRIST?

If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation....2 Cor. 5:17

EXACTLY! Context is everything! Amen.

UR takes scriptures that depend upon what we know from other scriptures and say they are touting UR tenets. The fact is that IN CHRIST is a qualifier that only refers to those who consciously were baptized into Christ's death. And just because the passage does not spell that out for us every time it mentions IN CHRIST, does not mean we are intended to believe UR in those verses.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All IN CHRIST shall be made alive.

Have you forgotten what it means to be IN CHRIST?

Ummm…that’s not what the verse says. Let’s look at it closely….

I Corinthians 15:22.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It’s saying that, in Christ, shall all be made alive. It doesn’t read (which is the way you’re reading it),

“For as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive.”

Basic English.

If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation....2 Cor. 5:17

Amen. You are absolutely correct. Take into consideration here…

I Corinthians 15:24-28
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

and….

Philippians 2: 10-11.
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Eventually all things will be “in Christ” and subject to his authority. Nothing will be left outside of him or outside of his authority. That God might be all…in all. In all. In all.

1 Cor. 15 is all about the RESURRECTION of those in Christ. Read it from beginning to end you will hopefully be enlightened.

Please read the above again.

When Jesus said he will draw ALL MEN to himself he means ALL NATIONS as opposed to just the Jews.

No, he meant all men. Jesus said what he meant.

How do we know this? Because Paul tells us that not everyone is called.

22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1 Cor. 1:22-26

Note verse 26. This shows us everyone is not called. Verse 24 implies the same.

Individuals will be drawn/called out of every tribe and tongue of men. But not all individuals of each.[/QUOTE]

It is true, not many are called…however…all are drawn. Big difference. The Greek term for drawn here isn’t “called”. The Greek implies a forceful “dragging”, not a passive calling.

Ultimate Rec also fails to take seriously that Yeshua understood that a very small minority would find the WAY TO LIFE.

The UR people always say God would be weak if he did not save everyone. Yeshua said this without apology.

23: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:23-25

The Lord did not make some nice speech about why God would not be glorified if he did not save all. Instead he admonishes them to STRIVE TO ENTER lest they perish! He confirms what the one asking the question wanted to know. FEW WILL BE SAVED. STRIVE that you may be one of them.

Pay close attention. Your position and UR agrees that only a few will be “saved”. Where we disagree is…saved from what? You say few will be saved from eternal unending torments and torture in Hell. Universalism believes that only a few will be saved from the torment of Hell’s purifying fire. Fire is used throughout the Bible to symbolize a painful but purifying force.

I’m really enjoying the conversation.

Here’s what I struggle with…

What is the purpose of Hell if it is eternal unending torments? Is it vengeance of a spiteful, unforgiving, and retributive God? Is it entertainment? After billions and billions and billions of eons what purpose will Hell have served? How can you rejoice knowing so many are being brutally tormented…most of which simply never heard? Sorry, I can’t see myself dancing while most that I ever knew are roasting, begging, pleading, for mercy…and God simply chooses not to have mercy. I cannot rejoice and dance knowing the horrors unfolding upon others who committed things I was commanded to forgive. If I can forgive them…why can’t God? What purpose will it have served to make a 16 year old Hindu girl who never heard of Jesus burn forever? What could a 16 year old American girl have done to warrant such a fate? Is God incapable of purifying his creation? If so, doesn’t he love his creation enough to do so? Is it that he doesn’t love us enough to do so and he’s just playing “religion” up in Heaven, burning all comers who don’t “get it right”, who weren’t born in the right country, or within the right indigenous religion?

Hell will be a horrible reality experienced by the vast majority of mankind. Very few will be saved from its torments. We agree here. Where we disagree (and I’m only entertaining the thought and seriously considering its implications), where we disagree is in regards to Hell’s purpose. You see it as an eternal torture chamber where God is somehow satisfied by hearing their never ending screams…an eternal Auschwitz. Universalism sees Hell as a purifying furnace, destroying the will and rebellion of the wicked and unbelieving, burning out the sinful dross of the soul, purifying them, bringing them into reconciliation with a God who loves them and died for them. Our mission is to warn and save as many as possible from this terrible experience. There are eternal consequences for those who pass through its flames. It is an “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46, an eternal “kolasis” (Grk. “pruning”). UR doesn’t see Hell as a walk in the park. Hell is horror and torments. However…we see it serving a purpose in God’s redemptive drama. In the end, UR proposes that Satan wins nothing.

Those are just a few thoughts. While I’ve not entirely embraced UR, I’m seriously presenting its arguments and implications because I’ve seriously struggled in my faith over the issue of Hell. It’s also in full agreement with countless “near death experiences” experienced by individuals all over the world.

[Aquila]

Here’s a thought…

Ethically speaking....if God can do anything (including purify the lost) but doesn’t; opting instead to torment them forever…what’s that say about him?

[Aquila]

Also…if Hell is an eternal Auschwitz where God tortures the lost forever and ever…what does that say about us... as we spend countless hours on silly things like this forum? Are we then not worthy of the greater damnation?

[Aquila]

Interesting…..

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Let’s look at the possible meanings of the word “part”….

3313 // merov // meros // mer'-os //

from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a
section or allotment); TDNT - 4:594,585; n n

AV - part 24, portion 3, coast 3, behalf 2, respect 2, misc 9; 43

1) a part
1a) a part due or assigned to one
1b) lot, destiny
2) one of the constituent parts of a whole
2a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree,
as respects a part, severally, individually
2b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect

Tradition teaches that it means “part” as in “destiny”. However, it need not be translated that way. It could be a part due, in measure, or to some degree. Who’s to say that some will have a greater part than others as their souls are painfully purified? Note what Jesus said…

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Some are punished far more than others…demanding duration. Eternal beatings or torments wouldn’t facilitate more being required of some…because all would suffer equally and indefinitely.

Just a thought.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All IN CHRIST shall be made alive.

Have you forgotten what it means to be IN CHRIST?

If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation....2 Cor. 5:17

I was reading this morning and came across another interesting text...

Ephesians 1:8--10
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom
and prudence; Having made known unto us the
mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he
hath purposed in himself: in the dispensation of
the fulness of times he might gather together in one all
things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on
earth; even in him:

One day...will not "all things" be "in Christ"?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All IN CHRIST shall be made alive.

Have you forgotten what it means to be IN CHRIST?

If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creation....2 Cor. 5:17

1 Cor. 15 is all about the RESURRECTION of those in Christ. Read it from beginning to end you will hopefully be enlightened.

When Jesus said he will draw ALL MEN to himself he means ALL NATIONS as opposed to just the Jews.

How do we know this? Because Paul tells us that not everyone is called.

22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1 Cor. 1:22-26

Note verse 26. This shows us everyone is not called. Verse 24 implies the same.

Individuals will be drawn/called out of every tribe and tongue of men. But not all individuals of each.

Ultimate Rec also fails to take seriously that Yeshua understood that a very small minority would find the WAY TO LIFE.

The UR people always say God would be weak if he did not save everyone. Yeshua said this without apology.

23: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:23-25

The Lord did not make some nice speech about why God would not be glorified if he did not save all. Instead he admonishes them to STRIVE TO ENTER lest they perish! He confirms what the one asking the question wanted to know. FEW WILL BE SAVED. STRIVE that you may be one of them.

That few that shall be saved appears to refering to destruction of jerusalem ion 70ad not humanity as a whole.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here’s a thought…

Ethically speaking....if God can do anything (including purify the lost) but doesn’t; opting instead to torment them forever…what’s that say about him?

Says he tormenting them for ever.


Scripture only thing that matters not if it makes sense to us or not.

[Truthseeker]

Not sure about this hell purifies/cleanses sinners in hell. I thought only the blood cleanses? Man, I'm not even convinced in burning hell at all.
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