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  #161  
Old 10-31-2008, 02:20 PM
Shawn Shawn is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

I think modesty has to be key.

But I don't see how we can take a snapshot out of time from 50 or a hundred years ago and make that the standard for apearance. What are the odds that the Apostles and early church would of passed the standards. Can we think that Paul was more worried about a close shave and a perfectly neat hair cut or converting souls and dealing with peoples hearts.
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  #162  
Old 10-31-2008, 07:39 PM
Rhoni Rhoni is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I think modesty has to be key.

But I don't see how we can take a snapshot out of time from 50 or a hundred years ago and make that the standard for apearance. What are the odds that the Apostles and early church would of passed the standards. Can we think that Paul was more worried about a close shave and a perfectly neat hair cut or converting souls and dealing with peoples hearts.
EXACTLY!

Blessings, Rhoni
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  #163  
Old 10-31-2008, 07:43 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhoni
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Those verses you quoted at the start say it all. How many churches concentrate on "touch not, taste not, handle not"? Some cannot even be reading the bible.
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  #164  
Old 10-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Rhoni Rhoni is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

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Those verses you quoted at the start say it all. How many churches concentrate on "touch not, taste not, handle not"? Some cannot even be reading the bible.
Bro. Blume,

So many false religions are started by taking one scripture, or one portion of a scripture, and basing a whole philosophy/doctrine on it. That is why it is so important to study the word, in the correct context, and to rightly divide it.

Paul showed such awesome wisdom when repremanding the Jewish leaders/converts when they tried to make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law they had been delivered from. To go back to the law with its regulations and traditions would render Christ's work on the cross to no avail.

I accept the grace of God in my life and I fight daily to keep myself free from those weights of judgmentalism, and works based traditions that kept me bound in shame and condemnation. No matter how hard I worked or how holy I looked - I never flet good enough. Now I just accept that I am not good enough - BUT HE is all I need. His grace covers my humanity.

Blessings, Rhoni
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  #165  
Old 10-31-2008, 09:14 PM
meBNme meBNme is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

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Originally Posted by Rhoni View Post
Bro. Blume,

So many false religions are started by taking one scripture, or one portion of a scripture, and basing a whole philosophy/doctrine on it. That is why it is so important to study the word, in the correct context, and to rightly divide it.

Paul showed such awesome wisdom when repremanding the Jewish leaders/converts when they tried to make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law they had been delivered from. To go back to the law with its regulations and traditions would render Christ's work on the cross to no avail.

I accept the grace of God in my life and I fight daily to keep myself free from those weights of judgmentalism, and works based traditions that kept me bound in shame and condemnation. No matter how hard I worked or how holy I looked - I never flet good enough. Now I just accept that I am not good enough - BUT HE is all I need. His grace covers my humanity.

Blessings, Rhoni
I'm curious, specifically what laws, regulations and traditions do you mean here?

It's interesting to see the spiritual journey you have taken. How a life of rules, regulations, expectations, condemnation etc, pushed you away, only to
have God draw you back to start over with you. It's obvious that there are scars from where things were mishandled, mistaught, misunderstood and just plain done wrong. Its also awesome to see God take all of that and start working on the vessel again. Scars, hard spots, broken pieces and all.
He obviously saw some soft spots, some moldable clay, and a desire to just be close to him.
Over and over in your posts I see you stress a desire to just know God, and live up to the standards HE desires of you, not mans requirements.
I do believe that is genuine.
I also agree that is the right way, the biblical way, to approach holiness.

It is so easy for those who hold to the dress and adornment standards to misunderstand, and thereby completely get the wrong impression of a persons intent. Its easy for this type of person to fall into the trap of thinking that anyone who balks at "standards" of dress, adornment, entertainment etc, are simply trying to justify sin, or ignore biblical teachings, or seek a "lower commitment" etc.

But it is true, if someone is living "standards of holiness" because of the "law" or condemnation, or purely strict regulation, they are doing it for the wrong reason and their soul is in danger.

If standards are taught or required, but the focus is not on love, grace, desire to please God, and hunger for a likeness of Christ, then it can be very harmful indeed.

We must be careful to understand that God deals with each of us differently, at different paces and methods. We must be careful not to see someone who does not agree with strict "holiness standards" as backslidden, or compromisers, or just wanting to justify a lack of willingness to please God. While there certainly may be some of that, not all fit that bill.


It is also easy to fall into the trap of misunderstanding those who believe those same standards are important, or necessary.
It's easy to see them as simply, "living by the law", legalists, neocons, and discount their beliefs as mere traditions of men, or false doctrine.

Yes there are some, (maybe many) who fit that description, not all who follow those "Holiness standards" fit the bill.
We must understand that some churches/pastors/individuals teach and believe that our focus should be on loving God, drawing closer to him, seeking his favor and delighting in his grace. We must understand that some of those "standards people" couldn't care less about mans traditions, rules, regulations etc, and just feel personal callings that draw them to certain types of dress, lack of adornment, and not participating in some forms of entertainment. It as nothing to do with law or rules, or "works of men" its simply a personal belief that it pleases God.

Rhoni, please don't let yourself be trapped by past wounds, or allow those times when you experienced the overbearing, law like nature of churches going about things the wrong way make you close doors that God may want to have open for you.
Follow Gods will, not only forgetting mans traditions and laws, but also not allowing his wrongness prevent you from seeing things in a different light.
Just because wrong things were taught, and things were handled wrongly with the wrong intent or method, doesnt mean there may not be nuggets of truth buried in all the dirt somewhere. Let your mind be open to GOD's intervention on subjects that mans failures built walls around. There may be another light cast on some things.
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  #166  
Old 10-31-2008, 10:56 PM
cliff d cliff d is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

Colossians 2:20-23 JB Phillips----So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world's life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions---"Don't touch this," "Don't taste that" and "Don't handle the other"? This, that, and the other will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at piety, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in the actual practice they are of no moral value,but simply pamper the flesh.

In the final analysis, Paul believed human traditions and regulations gave people a false sense of holiness and created unnecessary divisions in the body of Christ.

That is where I too shall rest my case. If one is not in a spirit of rebellion or offense, issues like beards and powder on your face do not destroy God's kingdom. They are not mentioned in the Gospels or Acts as a part of the plan of salvation; nor in I Corinthians 6: 9,10, as things that will keep one out of the kingdom; nor are they listed in Galatians 5: 19-21, as works of the flesh that also will bar a person from the kingdom of God. They are only kept alive as "hair-splitting theologies" by believers who may be sincere but are sincerely wrong in majoring on "gnat issues" that have little to do with living in the faith,
true holiness, the great commission, or the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although it may be painful and uncomfortable to examine some traditions of the past, it is
necessary that we break free from human webs of bondage and customs that are harmful to the kingdom of God. Traditions and nonessentials should be open to change and truth should prevail over the preferences of man. It is only after we are honest enough to confront our prejudices that the truth can set us free. When we make incidentals a part of our salvational doctrine, we have gone to far. Being "in the faith" requires us to refrain from teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and denominations. Let us cling to Biblical truth, while refusing counterfeit liberty and the
unnecessary yokes of man!
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  #167  
Old 11-01-2008, 09:24 AM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Re: Grace Verse Legalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff d View Post
Colossians 2:20-23 JB Phillips----So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world's life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions---"Don't touch this," "Don't taste that" and "Don't handle the other"? This, that, and the other will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at piety, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in the actual practice they are of no moral value,but simply pamper the flesh.

In the final analysis, Paul believed human traditions and regulations gave people a false sense of holiness and created unnecessary divisions in the body of Christ.

That is where I too shall rest my case. If one is not in a spirit of rebellion or offense, issues like beards and powder on your face do not destroy God's kingdom. They are not mentioned in the Gospels or Acts as a part of the plan of salvation; nor in I Corinthians 6: 9,10, as things that will keep one out of the kingdom; nor are they listed in Galatians 5: 19-21, as works of the flesh that also will bar a person from the kingdom of God. They are only kept alive as "hair-splitting theologies" by believers who may be sincere but are sincerely wrong in majoring on "gnat issues" that have little to do with living in the faith,
true holiness, the great commission, or the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although it may be painful and uncomfortable to examine some traditions of the past, it is
necessary that we break free from human webs of bondage and customs that are harmful to the kingdom of God. Traditions and nonessentials should be open to change and truth should prevail over the preferences of man. It is only after we are honest enough to confront our prejudices that the truth can set us free. When we make incidentals a part of our salvational doctrine, we have gone to far. Being "in the faith" requires us to refrain from teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and denominations. Let us cling to Biblical truth, while refusing counterfeit liberty and the
unnecessary yokes of man!

WOW Cliff...great post. I wish I'd have said all that... ;-)

I am preaching tomorrow morning on Gideons 300. God wanted no mistakes that it was ALL HIM and Zero us in winning the battle against the Midiantes.

Our "holiness rules, regulations, clothline, harline" preaching is our vain effort to take the credit for victory away from God and impute it to ourselves.

We glory in how good we can be, gloating and patting ourselves on the back for not alllowing facial hair in the camp, for keeping womea with pants on, out of the camp of the holy.

I think this is my first post on thsi thread, but I can't keep quiet any longer.

Legaism kills.

Some say that there is a right way to teach "holiness standards". I keep thinking that there can not be a right way to teach a false doctrine...period.

You can cloak it in sincerity all you want, but at the end of the day, if it does not stand up to proper scriptural exegesis it's not worth any more than a pile of cow pies.

I just recieved a letter from a young mna who was raised very ultra conservative.

He is so excited and on fire for God. For the first time in his life he is reading the bible thru, with his upc shaded glasses off.

He is so thrilled with the book of Galatians, asking me whether or not "apostolics" were even aware that the book of Galatians exsisted.

He is realizing that for so long he has been guilty of being under "that other gospel" that Paul alluded to.

We need Gideons army to teach us a lesson...it's 100% Jesus..Zero % us to receive the gospel message of Christ.

If we trust on our arm of flesh for any part of our salvation we are missing out on God's unmerited grace in our lives.
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