I think someone already mentioned the obvious, but here goes again. I was there and NO no one was forbidden to smile, (And yes I DO know you were being facetious) but you must keep in mind that to most of these people the very core that they had built their lives around, The United Pentecostal Church was something that for each individual there , there was an individual reason that they felt absolutely unable to continue with it any longer. And so many of them find themselves in a vacuum, trying desperately to make sense of what has happened.
I have heard people (again I have an official of the UPC as my house guest for a season and he is MOST vocal about his opinion concerning the happenings in the Western District that he is part of) ) and they feel that it was ALL political. That seems rather simplistic to me as while there are undoubtedly those who WERE motivated SOLELY and COMPLETELY by political ambition, (Can YOU say Nate Wilson?) most of the "little" guys were there more from disgust with the organization that had for decades in some cases and lifetimes in others, so completely held their loyalties.
Its really sad, and yet its not and then it is again. because some of us feel so caught between Egypt and the Promised land and feel that we are being held back from really going over EN MASSE into the land that our forefathers only beheld from far off. And so it appears to some of us that God is beginning the business of smashing the boxes that men have built over the past hundred years of this revival, and what happens???? A bunch of people break out of one box and immediately seek to begin construction on another!
Its sad all the way around.
TC, I honestly feel that if there is a chance of anything being reconciled, it will be through people like you. Your genuine concern, convictions, and level-headedness are apparent and refreshing. I am just praying that God will intervene on behalf of all who are sincere and pure in their motives and actions. I also pray that if there are any political or ambitious motivations in anyone, that they will not lead to the harm of any sincere-hearted people.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.
We can talk about push-pull technology and internet filters all day long, but what it really comes down to is a double-standard. Every time you tune to a channel on a television either digital or analog, you are tuning to a specific frequency and you are subject to whatever content the owners of that frequency have placed there. Every time you go to a website, you are routed to a specific IP address on the internet, and are subject ot whatever content the owners have placed there. With websites, there is usually content from multiple IP addresses embedded in the sites, making you also subject to any links placed on a site. Filters as well as parental controls are available for both the internet and television, and those filters are based either on keywords or a black list that is maintained by someone else and subject to someone's else's "discernment" as to what you should and should not be viewing.
You can take college courses on the internet, you can take college courses on television.... you can take defensive driving on the internet, and you can also take defensive driving on cable television. If we bring in the "what about the commercials" argument, then that should apply to radio as well... if we bring in the "moving pictures" argument, then that should encompass video as well. I'm just trying to quickly touch on most of the arguments I have seen trying to justify the anti-television stance.
They have a few people with admittedly excellent vocabulary throwing around enough technical jargon of the differences to keep the non-technical people confused and unable to respond without studying the technology for themselves. The technologies are merging, as most people will admit. These people would rather wait until the merge completes so that they never have to admit they were wrong in making television a point of fellowship or sometimes even a salvational issue. All it EVER was, was a communications medium that could be used for whatever you wish it to be used for, just like any other forms of communication... audio, video, or written, bi-directional or not.
[QUOTE=Brad Murphy;513635]I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.
I know it seems that way on the surface, but in my opinion TV has virtually nothing to do with them turning in their cards with the UPC. The shennanigans that have been going on with many from the chairman on down, (and ESPECIALLY the foreign missions department and the outrageous matters that go on there in the "upper level management" people has brought many many of these men and women to a tearful, life altering crisis or decision making crossroads. Many of them have just come to the point where the image they had of the UPC confronted with the reality of what it was fast becoming in THEIR experience just allowed them to walk that road no longer.
One thing that is interesting is that you feel they wanted to stop participating with OTHER Apostolic people based on a common salvation rather than common stance as to this issue (tv) or others, but aactually that has been the vey NATURE of the organization being discussed. If you DOUBT that ask any long time Apostoluc minister who does NOT hold license with that organization and many of them can tell you tales of such pain and often times hilarious yet still sad stories of the wall that has been built up BY the UPC and the rest of the Jesus Name movement for decades.
I know that in MY personal experience on SEVERAL continents and through three decades with that group I cant think of a SINGLE positive experience with them, in fact some of them perpretrated by their regiona directors of missions both in Asia and the European Middle East region are of such a nature that they can only be called deliberately and calculatedly EVIL (you may quote me) that and the destruction that the foreign missions department has either wittingly or unwittingly wrought upon national indigenous Apostolic group after national indigenous Apostolic group especially in many of the former "Iron Curtain countries" as well as in central and south America has become known among many of the missions minded pastors here at home and when they read the correspondence issued from Headquarters on the various situations it makes them see that what they have tied to themselves and the Public image it has created for the run of the mill saint are incredibly incredibly at odds. Many of them feel exceptionally disturbed at perpetrating on the saints what many of them have come to firmly believe is a lie.
I think that for a good many of them the truth of what they were a part of really hit home when they saw the pleading letters of Brother Solomon who heads the men in Ethiopia who did NOT embrace the doctrine that Jesus possessed no humanity in him at all but was merely a very solid theophany or appearance of God, they had been horribly and savagely persecuted By brother Teklemarian, having not only their own lives jeopardized, as Teklemarian notified the secret police of that former communist dictatorship of any of their meetings so that they could be brutally beaten, arrested, and thrown into prison, but also his crusade to either confiscate every church building that these people had built or at the least have it demolished and every stick, wire or brick carted away so that they could not rebuild. The letter sent out directly to Brother Haney pleading with him to use whatever remaining pull he might have with Brother Teklemarian for mercy and a cessation of this persecution of the brothers for their stance for truth ( the truth of the incarnation of God in HUMAN flesh,). What was the reply from Brothrer Haney the chairman of the the organization they held in such high esteem their entire lives to the savagely persecuted men and women of Ethipoia????
"This is the only response you will receive from us, DO NOT LOOK TO THE UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH FOR HOPE"
Followed up by a letter from the foreign missions regional director NOT to the saints holding on to truth but rather to the Apostolic Church of Ethiopia ministers (the group dissfellowshipped ...supposedly but dont you believe it) BY the UPC for its "Divine Flesh" doctrine telling them they had nothing to worry about from the UPC that they were NOT going to offer any kind of fellowship to these brave men and women being persecuted for truth, but rather that the men back in Ameerrica who were upset by the direction taken by Brother Teklemarian and his group were actually men like the Cretans, Lust filled men "whose God is their Bellies" (Brother Richardson.)
This of course gets even MORE despicable, and is but the very most tiniest part of an iceberg that lays BELOW the surface of the face put forward by the UPC GOVERNING body. Does the average member of the UPC have even an Inkiling of the iniquity going on behind the scenes? Not on your life, (but GOD does) to them UPC means that form of doctrine and clean living that was delivered to the saints back in Jerusalem so many centuries ago and any attack on IT is to them the same as an attack on FAITH. I firmly believe that it is HIGH TIME that we wake up to the fact that the structure of the Lords church is rrevealed in the Bible, and doesnt include the kind of horrific activity going on in the high places of man made organization.
And to those who think I am "UPC BASHING" believe me they ALL have the same nature at heart, that nature that showed itself back before Abraham when a group of people felt the overwhelming need to "Make us a name, and build us a tower to reach unto heaven lest we be scatterred" unfortunately they ALL have one thing in common....they are all made of Man Made Bricks held together with Slime. I believe the POSITIVE outcome of all of this is that there IS a very agitated but prayerfully so group of YOUNG men and women of God who are ready to step UP into the dimension of solely basing our fellowship AND COOPERATION with each other based on our being washed in Jesus blood baptized in Jesus name and filled with Jesus spirit, rather than some cardboard laminate card issued from Saint Louis, Mo. (Or Shelbyville or Memphis or Indianapolis or what have you.) Gentlemen you may now commence firing......
I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.
We can talk about push-pull technology and internet filters all day long, but what it really comes down to is a double-standard. Every time you tune to a channel on a television either digital or analog, you are tuning to a specific frequency and you are subject to whatever content the owners of that frequency have placed there. Every time you go to a website, you are routed to a specific IP address on the internet, and are subject ot whatever content the owners have placed there. With websites, there is usually content from multiple IP addresses embedded in the sites, making you also subject to any links placed on a site. Filters as well as parental controls are available for both the internet and television, and those filters are based either on keywords or a black list that is maintained by someone else and subject to someone's else's "discernment" as to what you should and should not be viewing.
You can take college courses on the internet, you can take college courses on television.... you can take defensive driving on the internet, and you can also take defensive driving on cable television. If we bring in the "what about the commercials" argument, then that should apply to radio as well... if we bring in the "moving pictures" argument, then that should encompass video as well. I'm just trying to quickly touch on most of the arguments I have seen trying to justify the anti-television stance.
They have a few people with admittedly excellent vocabulary throwing around enough technical jargon of the differences to keep the non-technical people confused and unable to respond without studying the technology for themselves. The technologies are merging, as most people will admit. These people would rather wait until the merge completes so that they never have to admit they were wrong in making television a point of fellowship or sometimes even a salvational issue. All it EVER was, was a communications medium that could be used for whatever you wish it to be used for, just like any other forms of communication... audio, video, or written, bi-directional or not.
Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR
__________________
There is a conspiracy of silence in the land.
Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR
Not your brand of Christianity...hmmmm...
I don't post much anymore, Bro. Tim, and seldom get into these discussions because they have been run ito the ground. Further, the opinions given by both sides will not change the mind of the other.
HOWEVER, your post has brought me out of the lurking stage...
Let me say at the outset that you and I are from the same State of MI...
The UPCI assembly here has never taught against television, rather using godly common sense...in other words, there is a knob or button on the clicker...turn it off if it is offensive.
For example, there are now commercials for men dealing with a subject that is quite delicate and is of no interest to me, so when it comes on, I simply change the channel. It's really easy to do...
It boggles my mind that people in leadership positions trust Saints to allow the Holy Ghost to guide them in every area BUT television.
They'll trust us to not go to places on the internet where we shouldn't or not engage in wrong relationships, yet when it comes to TV they think we lose all of the Spirit and are loosey goosey...can't figure this out.
As for the WPF, the founder of this org is my former pastor, and though I respect him in many ways, this new org is...something else.
They claim to not proselyte UPCI ministers, YET my brother is a UPCI pastor, not at all interested in the WPF, and they keep sending him literature.
They claim TV is not the issue, but it is ALL they talk about it seems.
The WPF website reeks with "we are not like you." And this "brand of Christianity" is okay?!
Sorry, but it doesn't meet mine...
I am UPCI by church affiliation and believe in much of the same principles as you, aside from the TV issue, yet that alone would probably put me in the same boat as some of those you place in the 95% range.
Wonder how the Lord views all of this?!
What does He think of families being split and divided, not to mention long-time brethren...brethren who believe the same Gospel message?!
I know that in MY personal experience on SEVERAL continents and through three decades with that group I cant think of a SINGLE positive experience with them, in fact some of them perpretrated by their regiona directors of missions both in Asia and the European Middle East region are of such a nature that they can only be called deliberately and calculatedly EVIL (you may quote me) that and the destruction that the foreign missions department has either wittingly or unwittingly wrought upon national indigenous Apostolic group after national indigenous Apostolic group especially in many of the former "Iron Curtain countries" as well as in central and south America has become known among many of the missions minded pastors here at home and when they read the correspondence issued from Headquarters on the various situations it makes them see that what they have tied to themselves and the Public image it has created for the run of the mill saint are incredibly incredibly at odds. Many of them feel exceptionally disturbed at perpetrating on the saints what many of them have come to firmly believe is a lie.
And to those who think I am "UPC BASHING" believe me they ALL have the same nature at heart, that nature that showed itself back before Abraham when a group of people felt the overwhelming need to "Make us a name, and build us a tower to reach unto heaven lest we be scatterred" unfortunately they ALL have one thing in common....they are all made of Man Made Bricks held together with Slime. I believe the POSITIVE outcome of all of this is that there IS a very agitated but prayerfully so group of YOUNG men and women of God who are ready to step UP into the dimension of solely basing our fellowship AND COOPERATION with each other based on our being washed in Jesus blood baptized in Jesus name and filled with Jesus spirit, rather than some cardboard laminate card issued from Saint Louis, Mo. (Or Shelbyville or Memphis or Indianapolis or what have you.) Gentlemen you may now commence firing......
I just wanted to respond to part of this (and don't worry, I'm not going to continue in a debate or start the old one back up again, I just hadn't said anything on this issue in six months or a year so had to get it out of my system.)
Being somewhat of a traveler myself, I can say that I have been in homes of people in India that consist of two rooms and plastic chairs, and the entire family sleeps in a room that isn't much bigger than my closet, yet they have television with HBO! These are families that make literally less than $2.00 US a day, and when we bring them broken toys from the US, they think it is Christmas time. How is it NOT a good thing to bring the "gospel" into their home? If it is because then it will be compared to the other television preachers, I think it's too late. The world doesn't care if you guys are on television or not. I can throw a stone and hit 10 different churches that have 10 different "revelations" about what it takes to be saved... you aren't gonna make it any more confusing by putting one more message on television...
The UPC manual contradicted itself by NOT allowing television, because their mission statement says something to affect they they want to bring the whole gospel to the whole world using whatever means necessary. If they are serious... then put it on television in Asia Pacific... Latin America, Africa, etc. Or does it take a white missionary in a suit to bring the gospel (rolled up into American culture and the American version of what the church is supposed to be) to these poor people?
People may or may not watch it, but at least it is out there if they choose to watch it... and those of you who believe the rapture will take place as soon as that last person has heard the gospel, will just be on your way a little bit sooner than before.
Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR
No offense taken... like I said in my previous response, was just getting it out of my system. By the way, you can just call me Brad... I don't use titles on others and don't expect them to be used on me. I am pretty familiar with the Pentecostal culture, having grown up in the UPC and being a PK myself... I'm part of the evil Murphy family that L.E. Westberg said came up to Kansas to get rid of all their standards because we rented a skating rink and the YMCA for the church people to swim in (no mixed bathing...).
Also - I find the written word more stimulating than pictures... you can imagine anything, and as spectacular as airbrushing and special effects are, I can usually think of something even more intense, etc. than any picture, moving or otherwise. Although I do understand that there is some book out that the ultra-cons (my label) like that talks about moving pictures being more stimulating, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet... it would probably just annoy me so I'll have to be really bored.
One more thing, Bro. Tim...you stated that you don't know why you are on this forum. Well, I can tell you why...
Your are here for the same reason I keep returning...this is an Apostolic forum and you are Apostolic.
Now I will be the first to tell you that I don't agree with everything posted on this board, but others, including admins, have made the same claim.
But you know, that's okay, because diversity is not wrong. It can't be, or else the UPCI has been wrong from its inception. The United Pentecostal Church, International was established on diversity, with the commom bond being obedience to Acts 2:38.
There are many today, as back then, who believed salvation takes place at belief and repentance, but is always followed with obedience in baptism in the Name of Jesus and Spirit infilling.
This diversity was not something that divided the brethren in 1945. My thinking is, if there was enough in common for a merger, and if Bros. Witherspoon, Fauss, Hanby, Chambers, and more didn't have a problem calling those of differing view brethren, what doth hinder me?!
You have a voice here, Bro. Tim, as much as those I strongly disagree with.
I hope your statement was a passing one and you will stay...
My whole problem with organizations is this: SEPERATION. They create differences. Oh I can fellowship this church because they believe like we do. I can't fellowship that church because they allow Christmas trees or wedding bands, or (insert your word here). Stay with me on this, SOUND FAMILIAR? Sounds like racism to me. They would not think of discriminating against someone for the color of their skin but will on the ideology, not theology, of what one must DO to be saved.
I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY HAVE LONG SLEEVES OR CUT HAIR OR TV'S, OR PANTS. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.
If you believe that Jesus came to Earth lived among men, suffered strips on his back for our healing, being hung on a cross for our sins, and rose three days later from the grave, for our redemption, with the keys to death, hell and the grave then hopefully you will follow through with that belief and obey what is written. If you can do that I can overlook our differences and love you and call you my 'family'. You are my brother or sister in Christ. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL NEED TO GET TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. If we can then we WILL SEE THE BIGGEST REVIVAL EVER SEEN. When it is no longer about your church or my church. No longer about ALJC, UPCI, AAFJC, PAW, AMF, WPF, or whatever other organizational or church name we can add in here then we will have the MOVE OF GOD we all desire to see.
I don't post much anymore, Bro. Tim, and seldom get into these discussions because they have been run ito the ground. Further, the opinions given by both sides will not change the mind of the other.
HOWEVER, your post has brought me out of the lurking stage...
Let me say at the outset that you and I are from the same State of MI...
The UPCI assembly here has never taught against television, rather using godly common sense...in other words, there is a knob or button on the clicker...turn it off if it is offensive.
For example, there are now commercials for men dealing with a subject that is quite delicate and is of no interest to me, so when it comes on, I simply change the channel. It's really easy to do...
It boggles my mind that people in leadership positions trust Saints to allow the Holy Ghost to guide them in every area BUT television.
They'll trust us to not go to places on the internet where we shouldn't or not engage in wrong relationships, yet when it comes to TV they think we lose all of the Spirit and are loosey goosey...can't figure this out.
As for the WPF, the founder of this org is my former pastor, and though I respect him in many ways, this new org is...something else.
They claim to not proselyte UPCI ministers, YET my brother is a UPCI pastor, not at all interested in the WPF, and they keep sending him literature.
They claim TV is not the issue, but it is ALL they talk about it seems.
The WPF website reeks with "we are not like you." And this "brand of Christianity" is okay?!
Sorry, but it doesn't meet mine...
I am UPCI by church affiliation and believe in much of the same principles as you, aside from the TV issue, yet that alone would probably put me in the same boat as some of those you place in the 95% range.
Wonder how the Lord views all of this?!
What does He think of families being split and divided, not to mention long-time brethren...brethren who believe the same Gospel message?!
I wonder what He thinks of all of this?!
Hey Barb, Good post. I have to agree with most of what you have said. I am not going into all the small details as I don't want to get stuck in this drag out, knock out thread. I have sat under two of the commitee members. Knowing these two men and the way they operate has really made me take notice and change some of my train of thought. I think you will agree that something has changed and it went far beyond the TV thing.
My wife and I noted a change when these men were a certain part of a certain conference in a certain place. Funny, the person who runs that conference is now independent, notice that he didn't sign on with this group. It was bad enough that the district split up out here. then this break off. All for what? There are many that are saddened, angry, mad at the way this was done. If you look at the leadership roles, most are filled by people from just a couple of churches. Talk about a self serving, put yourself in a top position because I am somebody just really sucks, to say the least. I could go on but will draw the raff of the know it all's on here, so I will go back on the sidelines.
I am pretty familiar with the Pentecostal culture, having grown up in the UPC and being a PK myself... I'm part of the evil Murphy family that L.E. Westberg said came up to Kansas to get rid of all their standards because we rented a skating rink and the YMCA for the church people to swim in (no mixed bathing...). 
Linear Mode
