Tithing…Is it a command?

[SwordmanJr]

Originally Posted by Neck

I agree with much of what you stated. My comments using the terms preached by the church today. Were only used to define my stance on what the meaning of increase is associated with...

Increase is not your income buth the concept of increase on what you have gained.

Thanks for the clarification.

So to your point, when I can show, that I have less in a year, then when I started, there is no tithe to be paid.

Interestingly, most people never give a thought to the fact that employers only retain an employee when the worker's labors gain more than the actual cost of the emplyee's wages. In other words, our labors actually generate more income for the employer than what the employee is handed in a paycheck. If this were not the case, then the emplyee is done away with from the payroll.

You did put forth a solid point of view.

I see giving a tithe or an amount each week as an offering not a tithe.

Even if that measure is equal to 10% of the a person's "check".

Something I find fascinating is the conclusive criticism to which the pro-required-tithing pimps resort. They love concuding that those who disagree with a required, biblical tithe to religious organizations are just greedy, and therefore will allegedly find any foothold they can gain for their cause in order to keep their money.

Well, that may be a legitimate charge when applied against people who are indeed greedy. However, it's an extremist viewpoint when shot from the other side of the boundaries of false teaching against people who simply desire TRUTH as opposed to falsehoods, and is therefore nothing more than an outplay of the accusor's own pharasaical leanings. Such accusors are no better than the priests who were addressed by the prophet Malachi for their robbery of God. In most cases, it's the guilty accusing the innocent.

This all is reminiscent of the roman catholic priests who would go about the countryside, taking from the poor farmers what the priests figured was due from tithes and tribute not paid by the poor. One story involved a priest mercilessly taking the last milk cow from a poor widow's barn, stating that she had not been paying her tithes and offerings as she should.

I'm positive that this same type of foolishness would be going on today if religionists were allowed that kind of authority, considering their words spoken in bold contrast to their own avarice.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Neck

If I ran your accounts and yearly equity, I would note that you nor anyone else is putting God first.

The Jew in the old testement took the vaule of all things on a yearly basis.

That would mean your 401K, equity in your home, earned income etc.

We American's do not understand networth.

The church teaches tithing as associated with earned income from a place of employment.

A good self-employed person could show no income.

Also the Jew when they lost numbers of sheep due to disease etc.

They could show a loss for the year and pay nothing...

Just as in the past 2 years my loss of home equity.

Loss of over 100K in my 401k and stock has me sitting at a negative since my income and networth in 2007.

I have lost a total of $175 from my networth since mid 2007.

That is not because of not being able to pay my mortgage or payments being to high or bad investments.

It is the simple supply and demand on our economy.

So to the church I would say, I have not had and income in a positive light since 2006.

So as for tithing there are no first fruits.

The money coming in from earned income has not been keeping up with networth loss.

So since mid 2007 there has been zero increase...

But many will preach that the check I receive are the first fruits...

The first fruits actually are tied to my networth of which a tithe was already paid.

Those increases became decreases which out paced my pay for employment.

So again since Dec 2006 there have been no first fruits to bring to the storehouse....

The Jew did not bring their income forward on a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly basis.

They did at the beginning of each year and only once per year.

To show the total of their increase from the prior year.

In the same mannor the priest walked through the Holiest of Holies to seek forgiveness of their sins for a year.

But yet I am still preached to that I should give 10% from my check!

Which is not equal to the custom from the OT in any light or doctrine...

God is first, the fact is there has been "no" increase!

You bloviate well.

The scriptures referring to the tithe is in regard to "increase" not income. The equity in your home, as just one example, was not lost because you never possessed it. It was a paper profit, just as now you may have a paper loss.

[Jason B]

good to see you GS

[A.W. Bowman]

The initial part of the following was posted earlier in the thread. However, it is republished here with some major editorial changes and several added notes and comments:

-----------------------------

If one is going to teach tithing, then one must teach all of the biblical tithing doctrine - from the very laws from which this doctrine is derived: All eight (even 10) of them. However, most teachers today have no real knowledge or understanding of the tithing precept, or why after the death of Christ, it is never mentioned again.

Is a workman worthy of his hire? Absolutely! No question about that. Should a local assembly take on the responsibility of supporting those who labor among them? Absolutely! Do those who "require" tithing actually believe in what they teach? Only a few! Most continue to grasp firmly to their secular jobs, not trusting in God to really meet their needs through the gospel they preach. Even so, if one is going to follow Paul's example, then they should leave the subject of tithing alone and support themselves, so as not to be a burden on the assembly.

No where in the scriptures are we allowed to establish our case on just a few laws, in order to support our favorite, sanctioned doctrines. If we appeal to just one written ordinance (take it down from the cross), are we not committed then to the entire package? Yet, the law of God still has a legitimate role to play in the life of a N.T. Christian (but, that is another study). As was pointed out on an earlier post, unlike the people of old, we actually own nothing, but are simply stewards of God’s creation, much like Adam and Eve! They owned nothing while maintaining control and responsibility over everything.

Yet, my personal position on tithing is that ten percent of my income is good a starting point for personal giving – when I have it to give – to support the work of the kingdom of God. Actually, according to the law, I am legally a double recipient of the Levitical tithe. Of course, according to our modern interpretation (rejection) of the law, I am excluded from receiving my otherwise lawful portion that the statutes allocate to me. And no, I am not a pastor! Even so, the purpose of the tithe was eliminated along with the destruction of the Temple and the disbanding of its hereditary Levitical priesthood. Now, if we are required to support a Temple replacement, i.e. the local church building, then let’s identify it for what it is, a levy on the congregation of a resurrected Temple tax, separate from any tithing issue. And, everyone who labors within our new temple, from grounds keepers to ushers and greeters to “temple” maintenance people are to receive their equal share of the tithes as their legally mandated support. Also, with this law in affect, then the ministry responsibilities must also be rotated throughout the allocated rotation periods, following the same laws of purity (e.g., one cannot serve in the temple with an issues of blood or with a deformity). When the law is applied without understanding (1 Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.) one quickly digs themselves into a very deep hole.

An interesting site, with a little hype and some substance, may be found at: www.nomoretithing.org

[A.W. Bowman]

A(n almost) finale comment: If anyone is convicted in their heart that tithing is a personal requirement upon you – even established and settled by the Spirit of God, then by all means continue to tithe! Do not allow anyone to persuade you differently! If, on the other hand you are convinced that you should give according to your ability, intent and clear conscience before God then let that be your guide. And, let us all be joyful in our hearts with the free giving of our substance to further the work of our Lord’s kingdom, and not under compulsion or the judgments of men.

For those who wish to teach on tithing, here is the place to start:

The Ten Mitzvot concerning tithes:

- Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
- To separate the tithe for the poor Deut. 14:28
- To set aside Terumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
- The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
- Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order Ex. 22:28
- To set aside Ma'aser (tithe) each planting year and give it to a Levite Num. 18:24
- To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
- To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13
- Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
- Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33

To understand what these laws represent and how they should be observed (followed, obeyed), may I suggest a complete reading of the books of Levities and Deuteronomy and then study the Midrash concerning these books.

To this study, add the teaching:

- Who makes up the priesthood in the church (assembly, synagogue) today?
- From whom does that priesthood receive tithes, when everyone is a member of that same royal priesthood?
- To whom does the priesthood pay their tithes on the tithes they have received? The High Priest? And, who is that, if not Jesus Christ, Himself?
- So, what is the biblical bases for tithing (not giving, offerings, etc.) in the church today (as referenced above, book, chapter and verse would be nice.)?

[A.W. Bowman]

Homework: If a church has 10 people who make $25,000.00 year (about $2,083.33 per month, $481/wk, or $12/hr) and tithe 10% on the gross (the full amount before taxes), how much does the pastor receive? (Hint: $25,000) If there are 20 people? (2ed hint: $50,000) If there are 40 people? (Last hint: $100,000). How much is enough for one man to receive for his support from the congregation with an average annual income of $25,000? At what point does providing simple support for one man and his family cease being support, and turns into the “making merchandize of the saints”?

Of course, this does not include congregational requirements to finance special projects, building funds, trips, conferences and gifts for the ministry, pledges for building and grounds maintenance, utilities, upgraded multimedia systems and air-conditioning units, etc., etc. Generally, there isn’t much left over for the poor, the hurting, the sick and infirm, the elderly, help for the man or women getting out of prison, a girl in need of a helping hand, or, just as important, offering assistance to the sinner and their family who have no where to turn except to the streets, etc. Some times I feel like I am in bondage to a building, rather than to God! Regardless of the justifications given, when giving to support a building becomes as (or more) important as supporting the salvation effort of a soul, that building has become an idol. When a building or a “servant” must be ministered unto before those things that God has set as His (and should be our) priorities, then we have truly robbed God. Not in tithes and offerings, but in following after false gods.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

You bloviate well.

The scriptures referring to the tithe is in regard to "increase" not income. The equity in your home, as just one example, was not lost because you never possessed it. It was a paper profit, just as now you may have a paper loss.

First your premise assumes that I am a "Bailout Baby".

I did not purchase my home, for nothing down and watch it gain in value by inflated markets.

I have paid over $300,000.00 of hard dollars into my home.

It is the hard dollars that have been lost since 2006.

Not all of us are walking around with 3% equity in our homes.

Also my 401K and pension accounts did not lose just the over inflated market dollars.

I have lost hard dollars, that were deposited into those accounts.

If you were to have an actuary run my hard dollar payments.

My real networth, (not my Donald Trump networth).

These hard dollars turned into losses.

Have outpaced my employment paychecks.

So at the end of each year, there was not an increase of my hard dollars or possessions.

Again it is amazing to me how many Christians, do not have a clue when it comes to networth or money...

An actuary will take a % of your home equity, to the number of years you have paid on the home.

To calculate your hard dollar gain and loss.

That sir is not Bloviating.

Those are the facts man, those are the facts....

[UrbanMissions]

Plain and simple , tithing was a covenant between natural Israelites and GOD and since we are not natural Israelites under the Old covenant but are under " a better covenant with better promises " we are not under the law of Moses through whom tithing was commanded.
There is not one New Covenant ( Acts-Revelation ) command to tithe but there is instruction on being " a cheerful giver . "

[A.W. Bowman]

I was very tired last night: Levities should have read, Leviticus. No doubt there are other such language problems. Again, the short answer to the question, "Is tithing a command [to the N.T. church]?" No, it is not.

[SwordmanJr]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Should a local assembly take on the responsibility of supporting those who labor among them? Absolutely!

I agree with this. One thing I will add, however, is that I am a member of a local assembly, but it is not one that has a professional hireling whom we must support. Our assembly recognizes the priesthood of all believers.

Do those who "require" tithing actually believe in what they teach? Only a few! Most continue to grasp firmly to their secular jobs, not trusting in God to really meet their needs through the gospel they preach.

This too is a good point. I have yet to find an example of the local elders within any locale in the NT making their entire living off those to whom they minister. Compensated for their expenses, yes, but the vast majority of those who made their living from those to whom they ministered were itinerant, such as Paul of Tarsus.

Even so, if one is going to follow Paul's example, then they should leave the subject of tithing alone and support themselves, so as not to be a burden on the assembly.

This opens another avenue of consideration, of which most never give thought:

At what point does one reach the point of spiritual maturity? In other words, why does the average congregant member have no problem with having given up his birth-right to spiritual maturity? Why does he sit in the body of perpetual sheepdom week in and week out, living out that which portrays his being stuck in that rut? The positional layout of most congregations speaks loud volumes to the fact that, in that place, the minister functions on a plateu to which all the other men in that place will not be allowed to aspire. All the men are expected to sit silently, and speak only when spoken to....which is nothing short of spiritual castration. After all, we have to have order.....right?

Spiritual functionality of ALL the believers in the assembly is not a violation of order. The accusation that it is a violation of order mostly eminates from those who are supremecists in their outlook upon the body of believers. Pastor-centricity is strangely missing within the very book after which most church organizations claim to have patterened themselves.

Yet, my personal position on tithing is that ten percent of my income is good a starting point for personal giving – when I have it to give – to support the work of the kingdom of God.

A side note to this is the fact that there are also biblical priorites as to where the primary portion of one's giving should go. As I pointed out in another thread, more than 93% of all institutional church organizations consume more than 95% of what's given to them for their own expenditures. That clearly gives us a credible indication that handing the primary portion of one's giving over to his or her church organization is NOT synonymous with giving to God's work.

God's work is PEOPLE, not organizations.

Good stuff, bro.