History of Tithes in the Church

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Akshuwally, they DID use money back then. They just didn't pay tithes with money, it was strictly agricultural products. And the reason was because the tithe was intended to be food (and drink), not cash.

Actually, my emphasis was on us not using barter like they did. Food and other items were bartered in those days as well as the cash and shekels and so on. We deal only in money. So, my point was that there is nothing wrong with giving 1/10th of income for offerings, or less or more. There is nothing wrong with giving 1/3 of income. But since bartering was in their system, things that could be bartered -- food -- were also implemented into that which was tithed. We do not barter food or items. So, we can tithe with money, and God can bless because we give in faith, not due to obligation for fear of a curse.

[mfblume]

Brother Blume,

I’d like to draw your attention to the big red letters above. Do you see them?
Could you explain to me when ”back then” was?

Because I’m pretty sure “back then” is in the Old Covenant/OT that you say you don’t teach tithes from.

Of course, they tithed under law. But I still do not use LAW to TEACH TITHES. You are still not getting my point. The LAW spoke of a curse associated with not giving tithes. Jesus took our curse as well as the curse of the Law, and tithing cannot replace his means of removing the curse. LAW teaches more than the definition of the term as one-tenth. It teaches tithing is vital, or else a curse goes along without it, as well as teaching all the intricacies about what is given and when that are being outlined on this thread. I do not teach those things, for they are what LAW says about the issue.

Brother, you don’t want them to tithe like the law! Under the law, tithing money was not allowed. And you should teach them what exactly tithing was under the law. Are you afraid that they will know the truth and the truth will make them free?

Tithing is not restricted to law's specific manner of tithing. Tithe means one-tenth. If I take a tithe of a sugar cub and put it in my coffee, I am not tithing as per law. Think TITHE as ONE-TENTH, period. I said that over and over again. If a person gives a tithe of money regularly, that is not tithing according to the Law. You admit so yourself.

Since I do not teach tithing according to law, I do not need to tell them anything about law. Again, I do not use the Law to teach tithing. ANd our folks are free since I never demanded tithing to begin with. There's simply nothing wrong with choosing to give ten percent of your income, period.

Oh yeah! I think you said that. You just use it for an example. You don’t teach from it. I’ve got it. I think.

No, you do not.

Who me?! I’s jus’ trying to understand! Don’t make fun of me!

Stop saying that I teach from law when I do not teach from law, then. "I's jus'" is the tripe I am also including about that tone.

The tithing system was ordained by God. It wasn’t a barter system at all.

Once again you missed my point altogether. I never said tithing was bartering Bartering uses payment apart from money. They bartered back then, so tithing took advantage of that and implemented that which was bartered and made those items that which was tithed. Tithing is not bartering. Tithing under law used that which was bartered instead of cash as that which was given in tithing.

He told them what to tithe. If He had wanted money, well, He could have just said so. Evidently He wanted food, even though money was readily available. It took thousands of years for preachers and churches to come up with the money idea.
Annnd they like it. Even though the “example” they teach from, or not, did not allow tithing money.

Or..... it's just okay to give one-tenth of money for offerings.

Okay brother, I think I finally get your point. How’d I do?

Quite poorly. You just assume too much about what I believe.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Apologies for hijacking the thread.

Respectfully, I may disagree, but I always enjoy what you have to say. Thanks for hijacking, besides I think I opened the door by a comment about the Sabbath.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Respectfully, I may disagree, but I always enjoy what you have to say. Thanks for hijacking, besides I think I opened the door by a comment about the Sabbath.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Actually, my emphasis was on us not using barter like they did. Food and other items were bartered in those days as well as the cash and shekels and so on. We deal only in money. So, my point was that there is nothing wrong with giving 1/10th of income for offerings, or less or more. There is nothing wrong with giving 1/3 of income. But since bartering was in their system, things that could be bartered -- food -- were also implemented into that which was tithed. We do not barter food or items. So, we can tithe with money, and God can bless because we give in faith, not due to obligation for fear of a curse.

Can you show where "bartering without money" was "used", and in what way?

I think the point here is not that people can't give money, but that such giving should not be confused with "tithing" which leads to unscriptural teachings and misunderstandings about what Biblical tithing was for. I don't think anybody is saying don't give.

But we all know that the commonly held teaching is "you need to give 10% of your income because the tithe belongs to God and failure to pay = robbing God." Not that you claim that, but most do. And when a person says "tithes" MOST people default in their mind to the common misconception. So some here are pushing for a reconsideration of the terminology to avoid perpetuating (even inadvertently) that misconception.

Plus we're all bored here on the forum.

[Esaias]

I'd like to know the origin of the TENTH part being considered a de facto standard. Why did Abraham give 1/10th and not say 1/7th? Or 1/20th? Why did Jacob promise a 10th and not a 12th or a 5th?

Genesis 47:26 KJV
And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh should have the fifth part ; except the land of the priests only, which became not Pharaoh's.

And why did Joseph impose a 20% tax instead of a 10% tax?

[Esaias]

Not sure if this was already posted or mentioned:

http://tithing-russkelly.com/id11.html

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can you show where "bartering without money" was "used", and in what way?

Job 6:27
“You would even cast lots for the orphans
And barter over your friend.

Job 41:6
“Will the traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him among the merchants?

Lamentations 1:11
All her people groan seeking bread;
They have given their precious things for food
To restore their lives themselves.
“See, O Lord, and look,
For I am despised.”

Ezra 3:7
Then they gave money to the masons and carpenters, and food, drink and oil to the Sidonians and to the Tyrians, to bring cedar wood from Lebanon to the sea at Joppa, according to the permission they had from Cyrus king of Persia.

Hosea 2:5
“For their mother has played the harlot;
She who conceived them has acted shamefully.
For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
Who give me my bread and my water,
My wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.’

Hosea 3:2
So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a half of barley.

Ezekiel 27:12-23
“Tarshish was your customer because of the abundance of all kinds of wealth; with silver, iron, tin and lead they paid for your wares. Javan, Tubal and Meshech, they were your traders; with the lives of men and vessels of bronze they paid for your merchandise. Those from Beth-togarmah gave horses and war horses and mules for your wares.read more.

Genesis 47:17
So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and Joseph gave them food in exchange for the horses and the flocks and the herds and the donkeys; and he fed them with food in exchange for all their livestock that year.

1 Kings 5:10
So Hiram gave Solomon as much as he desired of the cedar and cypress timber.

I think the point here is not that people can't give money, but that such giving should not be confused with "tithing" which leads to unscriptural teachings and misunderstandings about what Biblical tithing was for. I don't think anybody is saying don't give.

But we all know that the commonly held teaching is "you need to give 10% of your income because the tithe belongs to God and failure to pay = robbing God." Not that you claim that, but most do. And when a person says "tithes" MOST people default in their mind to the common misconception. So some here are pushing for a reconsideration of the terminology to avoid perpetuating (even inadvertently) that misconception.

Plus we're all bored here on the forum.

I agree, but I guess I have been apart from that mindset so long that I forgwt what people default to in their minds, which is why I said TITHE is literally only 10%.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Job 6:27
“You would even cast lots for the orphans
And barter over your friend.

Job 41:6
“Will the traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him among the merchants?

Lamentations 1:11
All her people groan seeking bread;
They have given their precious things for food
To restore their lives themselves.
“See, O Lord, and look,
For I am despised.”

Ezra 3:7
Then they gave money to the masons and carpenters, and food, drink and oil to the Sidonians and to the Tyrians, to bring cedar wood from Lebanon to the sea at Joppa, according to the permission they had from Cyrus king of Persia.

Hosea 2:5
“For their mother has played the harlot;
She who conceived them has acted shamefully.
For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
Who give me my bread and my water,
My wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.’

Hosea 3:2
So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a half of barley.

Ezekiel 27:12-23
“Tarshish was your customer because of the abundance of all kinds of wealth; with silver, iron, tin and lead they paid for your wares. Javan, Tubal and Meshech, they were your traders; with the lives of men and vessels of bronze they paid for your merchandise. Those from Beth-togarmah gave horses and war horses and mules for your wares.read more.

Genesis 47:17
So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and Joseph gave them food in exchange for the horses and the flocks and the herds and the donkeys; and he fed them with food in exchange for all their livestock that year.

1 Kings 5:10
So Hiram gave Solomon as much as he desired of the cedar and cypress timber.



I agree, but I guess I have been apart from that mindset so long that I forgwt what people default to in their minds, which is why I said TITHE is literally only 10%.

You are arguing that the tithe was of good and agriculture products because bartering was their main way of trading. But bartering appearing in the Scriptures does not support such statement!

You posted 9 passages about bartering. I posted 12 of money usage in exchange. I also posted some from the NT because people forget that the tithing was also active in the NT yet they used money extensively as well. Notice that even in the times of Moses, they had a system of lending with interests, and even during Jesus's time, they already had the concept of bankers, so it was setup even before Jesus' time. Money in trading was common from ancient times.

Gen 17:23 NKJV - (23) So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him.
Gen 23:15-16 NKJV - (15) "My lord, listen to me; the land [is worth] four hundred shekels of silver. What [is] that between you and me? So bury your dead." (16) And Abraham listened to Ephron; and Abraham weighed out the silver for Ephron which he had named in the hearing of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, currency of the merchants.
Gen 33:19 NKJV - (19) And he bought the parcel of land, where he had pitched his tent, from the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for one hundred pieces of money.
Gen 42:25 NKJV - (25) Then Joseph gave a command to fill their sacks with grain, to restore every man's money to his sack, and to give them provisions for the journey. Thus he did for them.
Exo 21:30, 34-35 NKJV - (30) "If there is imposed on him a sum of money, then he shall pay to redeem his life, whatever is imposed on him. ... (34) "the owner of the pit shall make [it] good; he shall give money to their owner, but the dead [animal] shall be his. (35) "If one man's ox hurts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide the money from it; and the dead [ox] they shall also divide.
Exo 22:17, 25 NKJV - (17) "If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins. ... (25) "If you lend money to [any of] My people [who are] poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
Exo 30:16 NKJV - (16) "And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD, to make atonement for yourselves."
2Ki 15:20 NKJV - (20) And Menahem exacted the money from Israel, from all the very wealthy, from each man fifty shekels of silver, to give to the king of Assyria. So the king of Assyria turned back, and did not stay there in the land.
Mat 10:9 NKJV - (9) "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts,
Mat 25:27 NKJV - (27) 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.

How exactly are you supporting your argument? that "bartering was more often or easier therefore that's why tithing was of agriculture products?" If that's your argument, then money must have been hard to get or exchange. However, that's not the case at all in the entire Bible.

If the reason for tithing of agriculture products was that, then, why not God let the Israelites that were able to use money (assuming was a rare thing), just give money to the Levites for the tithe, instead of telling them to rebuy products in this passage?

Deu 14:24-26 NKJV - (24) "But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry [the tithe, or] if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, (25) "then you shall exchange [it] for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. (26) "And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

So there must be another reason than just "money is hard to get or exchange".

Also, why the Lord commands money (remember it was gold and silver) handling as a way to solve some disputes, contribute to the Sanctuary building, or redeem your first born, instead of just leave it open to goods exchange knowing the Lord that money was hard to get or exchange? (see it in the passages I posted above)

Money was generally speaking an available way of trading, for pretty much everybody. And please, don't come saying it was not that money was hard to get or exchange but just less valued or preferred because now you have to prove me that silver and gold, something that is precious and does not perish as goods do, was not a preferred thing on a normal economy...

What is your argument then? What bartering has to do with tithing being of agricultural products again?

Also, could you please find me a command or example in the Scriptures of hired servants or labor or carpenters or fishers ever tithing of their money, gold, silver from trade, or bartering goods from trade? If there is none, does it tell you anything?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Not sure if this was already posted or mentioned:

http://tithing-russkelly.com/id11.html

Yes, it was a practice before Abraham, but also, I believe the reason for tenth comes to the practicality of it for the Semitic people. They used the decimal numeral system. If you want to share your stuff or impose a tax, the easiest math is to use "tenth" in a 10-based numerical system: remove a digit, or just use your fingers to count (most of us have 10 fingers).