Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Okay, let's just lay it all out on the table so there's no more confusion. Let's say someone repents of their sins and is baptized, but dies before receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (ignoring the tongues issue for now). Do you believe they are saved?

It doesn't matter what I believe. Does it?

What does scripture say?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

John 3 - must be born of the water and the spirit or you cannot see/enter the kingdom of God. What are you not understanding about this?

More on this question you raised:

Nicodemus came to Jesus asking him how it was that He was doing the miracles, and how could He do these things unless God was with him. Then Jesus says to him,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

and continues to speak to Nicodemus about what he had just said, to clarify what he had just said... and then Jesus says:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The rest of Jesus' words to Nicodemus are about believing, and he says:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The chapter continues on, and ends with this verse:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So, it is clear that Jesus did speak of both water and spirit in John 3:5, but then when He clarified what he said, after Nicodemus said, how can these things be... it was all about believing.

Now, let's look at John 7:38 to see if we can find a parallel to this scripture and John 3:5

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jesus says here that he that believeth on me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. What could "rivers of living water" mean?

This scripture does not say "he that believeth on me and is filled with the spirit and speaketh in tongues then out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

It simply says "He that believes will have rivers of living water flowing out of his belly."

So what is this "river of living water", and how does it flow out of one's belly by just believing?

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

It doesn't matter what I believe. Does it?

What does scripture say?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So you won't say whether you believe they'll be saved? If you're so sure of what you're saying, why can't you affirm it?

And according to your logic, Romans 10:9 is saying you don't even need to be baptized or repent. Where in that verse does it say you need to repent or be baptized?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

So you won't say whether you believe they'll be saved? If you're so sure of what you're saying, why can't you affirm it?

And according to your logic, Romans 10:9 is saying you don't even need to be baptized or repent. Where in that verse does it say you need to repent or be baptized?

Do I get to decide who goes to heaven?

No, of course not. But, we can look to see what scripture says. That is what I did. That is where the answer is written, not my words.

How does Romans 10:9 contradict Mark 16:16 "he that believeth not shall be damned" ?

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Do I get to decide who goes to heaven?

No, of course not. But, we can look to see what scripture says. That is what I did. That is where the answer is written, not my words.

How does Romans 10:9 contradict Mark 16:16 "he that believeth not shall be damned" ?

You claim that because Mark 16:16 doesn't mention the infilling of the Holy Ghost, that it's not a requirement for salvation. By your logic, since Romans 10:9 doesn't mention repentance or baptism, then they're not required for salvation.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Do I get to decide who goes to heaven?

No, of course not. But, we can look to see what scripture says. That is what I did. That is where the answer is written, not my words.

How does Romans 10:9 contradict Mark 16:16 "he that believeth not shall be damned" ?

Oh, and nice job avoiding answering a simple yes or no question. I never asked if the person WOULD be saved, I asked if you BELIEVED that person would be saved. If you're unwilling to answer to your own beliefs, then how can any of us take you seriously?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

You claim that because Mark 16:16 doesn't mention the infilling of the Holy Ghost, that it's not a requirement for salvation. By your logic, since Romans 10:9 doesn't mention repentance or baptism, then they're not required for salvation.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Romans 10:9 does not mention baptism, along with many others. Perhaps we should just go with those?

How about we line them all up, and see how many say baptism, how many say baptism and repentance, and how many say baptism, repentance, and speaking in tongues? And just go with the largest collection of verses that say the same thing?

Originally Posted by Jito463

Oh, and nice job avoiding answering a simple yes or no question. I never asked if the person WOULD be saved, I asked if you BELIEVED that person would be saved. If you're unwilling to answer to your own beliefs, then how can any of us take you seriously?

I answered with a scripture. I stand with the scripture. You can take from that scripture exactly what it says, what to believe, and what we should believe.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes.

Ah, but that's not what it says...

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

The main difference between what you believe, and what the scriptures say is this: Salvation takes place at repentance/baptism, and upon that belief in Jesus and being saved, the Lord is able to pour out His spirit. Tongues seem to be the most common manifestation of that outpouring, but because too many accounts do not include the evidence of tongues, it cannot be used as the only measuring stick of receiving the spirit or of salvation.

Tongues are NEVER defined as the measuring stick of salvation in scripture... belief/repentance/baptism are defined in that way. There are so many scriptures that state this... let's start Mark 16:16, in Jesus' words

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

... and then:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

There is no contradiction in scripture or no fancy foot work needed to jump around in the scriptures and prove that repentance/baptism equal salvation. It is stated simply, time and time again.

However, with tongues = the evidence of salvation, not ONE scripture specifically stating such. Lots of fancy foot work goes on to justify that fallacy.

Plain and simple... Repentance/baptism are what is necessary for salvation, and THEN the Lord can gift with the full outpouring of His spirit... not for salvation but for POWER, spoken out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Salvation occurs at the hearing of well done thou good and faithful servant. If you will note all the the shall's in the scriptures that you have posted. Repentance is a heart thing and not just a word thing. Faith is more than a confession. It will be God who decides who is lost or saved and not You or me. We should tell people to follow the word of God completely. We shouldn't be telling anyone that the Bible doesn't explicitly say this so it is not salvational. If we think we can complete a certain formula and force God's hand at the judgement we are mistaken. We must have Spirit of God.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes, you are absolutely right. Romans 10:9 does not mention baptism, along with many others. Perhaps we should just go with those?

How about we line them all up, and see how many say baptism, how many say baptism and repentance, and how many say baptism, repentance, and speaking in tongues? And just go with the largest collection of verses that say the same thing?



I answered with a scripture. I stand with the scripture. You can take from that scripture exactly what it says, what to believe, and what we should believe.

So you won't affirm if you believe that. Okay, I guess we're done. If you won't say what you believe one way or the other, I don't see any point in continuing.