Actually I have not suggested that he divorce his second wife. I said he needs to end the adulterous relationship, subtle though the difference might be. The second is not a marriage in the eyes of God. You get one husband or wife since in the church you have been. After that it is all just adultery.
Thats my opinion any way.
And you know what they say about opinions.
Then how about lying? If he breaks his vows to his new wife then that is a lie... And theres no way to get around that. Should he lie in order get right with God?
Timmy, I realize that you are going for the shock/ridiculous element here, but honestly, this is where my "religiosity" and my human understanding get all tangled up. There are several issues that force me question my belief system, and this is one of them. I am not talking about the forgiveness issue, I am talking about the "change" issue.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'd like to present exhibit B.
The Bible.
My learned opponent would like to disregard it because it hurts feelings but it still the book I live by and the book we will be judged by.
The text reads,
“3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say unto you (THE PHARISEES), Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.” - Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees asked this question because they were putting their wives away for just any cause and remarrying a “newer model”. Jesus tells them that according to the Law (remember all of this was said under the Law) that if a man puts away his wife for any other cause other than fornication (sexual uncleanness) and marries another, he commits adultery. And whoso marrieth her which is put away for another other cause commits adultery. Jesus wasn’t giving a didactic teaching of the church. His words were a rebuke of their own carnal practices.
Paul said,
“8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.” – I Corinthians 7:8-15
Paul illustrates that there are exceptions to the rule spoken of by Christ under the Law. Essentially if an unbelieving (be they unbelievers or backslidden from the faith because this is unspecified) spouse wishes to divorce, we are to just let them go. A brother or sister isn’t bound to remain single and reconcile in such cases.
We have to have wisdom and grace in these matters.
New Living Translation:
So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach.
How do we apply it? What does it mean?
A good reputation is something you work towards and earn. And you can lose it.
If the elders of his church are considering restoring him to ministry and the congregation is accepting of this restoration has he not worked towards that and earned being above reproach in the matter and of a good reputation?
What about consequences? David and Bathsheba comes to mind when I think of someone who, on a spiritual level, was completely restored. Bathsheba became a good wife to the king -but they suffered years of physical consequences that went beyond their life spans, as a result of his/their initial sin.
Moses sinned and while the bible is not clear on the details still seemed close to God at the end, yet was not allowed into the promised land. Did he end up in heaven when he died? I don't think there is anyone who doubts that, but he did pay a price while still alive.
I believe that as with David and Bathsheba's sin, this man's sin will bring it's own penalty that he will deal with throughout his life. If his elders feel led to restore him and the congregation welcomes him... are we to demand that the church add to teh penalty he will naturally reap?
Thumper, you have suggested that the man is still in sin unless he divorces his new wife... don't you know that if he divorces his new wife that he has yet again committed adultery for he did not put her away because of fornication? Shall he sin again so that grace may abound... God forbid?
EDIT: Furthermore it would be a lie to have made the new wedding vow and not keep it... now we are up to lying and adultery just to put away the new wife... Interesting theory you have on how to get right with God Thumper. As for me I can't suggest that he should sin again even once in order to get right with God but I suppose you can believe as you please
It should also be noted that the Law stipulates that if one divorces and marries another he is forbidden to return to the former spouse.
Actually I have not suggested that he divorce his second wife. I said he needs to end the adulterous relationship, subtle though the difference might be. The second is not a marriage in the eyes of God. You get one husband or wife since in the church you have been. After that it is all just adultery.
Thats my opinion any way.
And you know what they say about opinions.
He ended the adulterous relationship the moment he repented and married her. Now they are married. Even the Law would acknowledge this and forbid him from returning to his first wife should he divorce the second.
There is always 2 sides to a story as they say, but isn't there only one legitamate reason for divorce in the bible and that is if one spouse commits adultery on the other??? and I don't see how the man going back into the ministry after remarrying the woman he cheated on with against his wife is a good example to set forth to sinners coming into the church!!! do you? where is the wisdom in that? and where is the testimony to others in his actions? really in my opinion he should ask Gods forgiveness and sit out the ministry if he married the woman he had the affair withand just prove his sincerity to God that he is sorry for doing wrong...His wife really didn't ask for that kind of treatment when she married him.
There is always 2 sides to a story as they say, but isn't there only one legitamate reason for divorce in the bible and that is if one spouse commits adultery on the other??? and I don't see how the man going back into the ministry after remarrying the woman he cheated on with against his wife is a good example to set forth to sinners coming into the church!!! do you? where is the wisdom in that? and where is the testimony to others in his actions? really in my opinion he should ask Gods forgiveness and sit out the ministry if he married the woman he had the affair withand just prove his sincerity to God that he is sorry for doing wrong...His wife really didn't ask for that kind of treatment when she married him.
How do you know? I know of a story wherein a wife virtually threw a very attractive girlfriend at her husband after being cold and depriving him of intimacy and affection for months. She did this just to justify herself with ending the marriage. While yes he gave in to temptation, he was a victim of another's plot.
Sorry, after experiencing divorce for myself and knowing how down right evil a woman can be in the process I don't rush to crucify a man so quickly. Yes, a man might sin... but it may not have been with intent, nor did he ever say, "Daddy, I want to cheat on my wife when I grow up."
I say leave it to the local church. But personally, I'd not pursue an office requiring a license.
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