I have the feeling that most of us would be two squeemish to be loving Christians in the culture of ancient Rome. It's not for us to control the world. It's for us to live for God as individuals in a fallen world. This isn't something to fight, nor is it something we can successfully fight. The best way to deal with this is personally live our values and teach them to our children. If we feel this strongly about it, we should avoid this kind of programming as much as possible and raise our children according to our values.
As for "parenting". I know a gay engineer who is divorced and has custody of his kids. His wife is strung out on drugs. He is a very involved father. To see him with his kids is enlightening. Sometimes I feel he gives them far more time, attention, and even spiritual instruction (he's a devout Episcopal) than I do my kids. Frankly, his parenting skills challenge me. We've prayed together, read the Bible together, and I've even been on a short spiritual retreat with him for an afternoon (that's a story for another day lol, trust me). He's a good guy. He's not an abusive monster. Now, we can disagree with his personal life choices all day long, but as a person, I'd never say anything to hurt him. My Apostolic church didn't offer me a bit of help when my mother died. Jim paid for my out of town hotel expenses when mom died. When I thanked him and told him he didn't have to... he said, "Hey, that's what Christians do." While we can take issue with some things about him... in some ways he's more Christian than many of us.
I'd like to know... do we take such a serious position against parents who raise their kids in homes where the man and woman aren't married?
Do you agree the show is disgusting or not? That's what this thread was about. Not about how unloving or unspiritual the rest of us aren't because we didn't attend a retreat with a "gay Christian." Americans are made up of many worldviews, one of them Christians. You opinion does count. Jerusalem wasn't a democracy. It was a place of persecution. We are blessed.
Your views seem identical to Heavenlys. It's compartmentalized parenting instead of holistic. We run into people like that your friend often -- they convict us. I had a Buddhist friend that was like that. It's amazing. I just find it irrelevant frankly. Culture is all about a fight. You want to lay down and let it go, but the other side is ravenous and eager to gain promotion into society as not just "alternative" but normal. Love yes. Have no backbone and no clarity about right/wrong? No.
Yes, ultimately we deal with it. But we don't have to right now. And we certainly don't have sit here debating a thread that is talking about how perverse a show with a same-sex couple is.
Unmarried couples? I think that's a tragedy. Let's just shoot straight on this one though: it's an age-old problem inside an acceptable design. This shouldn't open the doors for same-sex parenting. Poor logic, Aquila. Because A=B, therefore C=B.
Same-sex parents can be good people, who can provide for their children the basic needs. However, they fall miserably short in areas of modeling behaviors.
Same-sex parents can be good people, who can provide for their children the basic needs. However, they fall miserably short in areas of modeling behaviors.
I agree, but the point I was making was that if being gay is all they are guilty of, I don't have as much of a problem with that as I do hetero parents, whether single or not, who abuse their children.
There are so many unwanted kids in the system who have been through so much. If there aren't enough single parents or hetero couples, I'm all for gay parents caring for them. They'll be better off in the end that if they stay in the system. That's been proven statistically already.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I agree, but the point I was making was that if being gay is all they are guilty of, I don't have as much of a problem with that as I do hetero parents, whether single or not, who abuse their children.
There are so many unwanted kids in the system who have been through so much. If there aren't enough single parents or hetero couples, I'm all for gay parents caring for them. They'll be better off in the end that if they stay in the system. That's been proven statistically already.
What statistic are you referring to? Do you have a link?
Come out from among them and be separate. Church folks adopting worldly attitudes concerning sacred matters. That's what I hear.
This argument has nothing to do with single parents, or failing hetero families. It's about a new option that is being shoved into the lap of all Americans, whether we like it or not. We are simply saying "we don't like it!"
Good point. I believe kids do well when they have two stable and balanced individuals in their lives. Sure, I'll agree, ideally it's best for there to be a mother and a father. But all too often that isn't the case in the real world.
Do you agree the show is disgusting or not? That's what this thread was about. Not about how unloving or unspiritual the rest of us aren't because we didn't attend a retreat with a "gay Christian." Americans are made up of many worldviews, one of them Christians. You opinion does count. Jerusalem wasn't a democracy. It was a place of persecution. We are blessed.
I don't see anyone as being "unloving or unspiritual" who takes a strong stand against something like this. I do have issues with the way we speak about them though. Sometimes I think we're far too venomous and hateful in our words.
You'll notice in the writings of Paul he was concerned with the lifestyles of the church. Paul didn't lead a crusade to reform Rome. In fact, when Christianity because political it opened the door for the statist mess of Constantinism and Romanism.
As for what I think about the show... I haven't seen it. Odds are I'd not watch it. But if I did...depending on how they depict the gay parents, I might find it repulsive, I might not.
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Your views seem identical to Heavenlys. It's compartmentalized parenting instead of holistic. We run into people like that your friend often -- they convict us. I had a Buddhist friend that was like that. It's amazing. I just find it irrelevant frankly. Culture is all about a fight. You want to lay down and let it go, but the other side is ravenous and eager to gain promotion into society as not just "alternative" but normal. Love yes. Have no backbone and no clarity about right/wrong? No.
To me it's a matter of being a realist. Think of it like this: What do we advocate...having the STATE take children from loving parents who are gay just because many of us find their lifestyle unacceptable? To me that's unacceptable. Preaching against lifestyles that we believe are sinful in our churches is expected. Our families living according to their religious convictions is perfectly in order. Fighting to protect OUR rights is a necessity. However, fighting to control others that we don't agree with in free country... that I cannot accept. Treating anyone like a second class citizen based on a very private and personal matter such as this is unacceptable to me as an American who believes in freedom. In my opinion, fighting for my freedoms and liberties is combined with fighting for theirs. Liberty is Holy... even if men use said liberty for things that are sinful or unacceptable to us.
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Yes, ultimately we deal with it. But we don't have to right now. And we certainly don't have sit here debating a thread that is talking about how perverse a show with a same-sex couple is.
I've not seen the sitcom. I don't know if it's perverse or just offering a humorous depiction of an aspect of American life many of us disagree with.
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Unmarried couples? I think that's a tragedy. Let's just shoot straight on this one though: it's an age-old problem inside an acceptable design. This shouldn't open the doors for same-sex parenting. Poor logic, Aquila. Because A=B, therefore C=B.
Now, it sounds like you're wanting to back peddle a little. Two adults living together outside of marriage is more than a tragedy... it's a "sin"... just like same gender couplings. I think the vast number of these arrangements between unmarried men and women do more to undermine marriage than a marginal section of our society coupling. What does shacking up teach millions of American children day in and day out? It would almost be better if the kids were raised in a gay household where the people were "married" or in "civil union". At least it illustrates a binding legal commitment between intimate partners. If anything we as a culture should expect that ANYONE living in an intimate relationship be legally bound and responsible for said relationship. We don't downgrade this to a "tragedy" or just an "age-old problem".
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Same-sex parents can be good people, who can provide for their children the basic needs. However, they fall miserably short in areas of modeling behaviors.
Brother, Jeff... we all fall miserably short in areas of modeling behavior at times. Just keep in mind, some households with living arrangements we don't agree with do better than we do.
I don't see anyone as being "unloving or unspiritual" who takes a strong stand against something like this. I do have issues with the way we speak about them though. Sometimes I think we're far too venomous and hateful in our words.
You'll notice in the writings of Paul he was concerned with the lifestyles of the church. Paul didn't lead a crusade to reform Rome. In fact, when Christianity because political it opened the door for the statist mess of Constantinism and Romanism.
As for what I think about the show... I haven't seen it. Odds are I'd not watch it. But if I did...depending on how they depict the gay parents, I might find it repulsive, I might not.
To me it's a matter of being a realist. Think of it like this: What do we advocate...having the STATE take children from loving parents who are gay just because many of us find their lifestyle unacceptable? To me that's unacceptable. Preaching against lifestyles that we believe are sinful in our churches is expected. Our families living according to their religious convictions is perfectly in order. Fighting to protect OUR rights is a necessity. However, fighting to control others that we don't agree with in free country... that I cannot accept. Treating anyone like a second class citizen based on a very private and personal matter such as this is unacceptable to me as an American who believes in freedom. In my opinion, fighting for my freedoms and liberties is combined with fighting for theirs. Liberty is Holy... even if men use said liberty for things that are sinful or unacceptable to us.
I've not seen the sitcom. I don't know if it's perverse or just offering a humorous depiction of an aspect of American life many of us disagree with.
Now, it sounds like you're wanting to back peddle a little. Two adults living together outside of marriage is more than a tragedy... it's a "sin"... just like same gender couplings. I think the vast number of these arrangements between unmarried men and women do more to undermine marriage than a marginal section of our society coupling. What does shacking up teach millions of American children day in and day out? It would almost be better if the kids were raised in a gay household where the people were "married" or in "civil union". At least it illustrates a binding legal commitment between intimate partners. If anything we as a culture should expect that ANYONE living in an intimate relationship be legally bound and responsible for said relationship. We don't downgrade this to a "tragedy" or just an "age-old problem".
Brother, Jeff... we all fall miserably short in areas of modeling behavior at times. Just keep in mind, some households with living arrangements we don't agree with do better than we do.
Sigh.
Who has been venemous and hateful? We are being clear about what we believe regarding homosexuality at a time when our generations are getting mixed signals. This TV show is not the only one portraying homosexual behavior as normal and acceptable -- try ER, Will and Grace and Desperate Housewives to name just a few.
There's a difference between a monarchy and democracy, in your argument about Paul's crusade against marriage. That aside, this thread was not even about that. It was about a television show depicting same-sex couples as parents under the guise of "modern family." I'm happy to debate with you what the Christian response should be in matters of civics, where we all have a duty and responsibility in this great republic, but that wasn't the point of our opinions on this thread.
You might find it repulsive, you might not? How about see it as God sees it. Do you think he finds it beautiful? Has he changed His mind on blatant sin? And don't just point to other sinful activities (yes, I used the word tragedy, which refers to a death, spiritual death, which implies sin, I wasn't back-peddling in the least or "down-grading" it) to justify the one we are talking about. That's childish logic. Let's be clear, Christians believe the best environment for a child is in a God-fearing home, with two married adults, one mom, one dad who also love the Lord. That there are other forms that don't match this, is in no way a justification of this perverseness that apparently has warped your worldview as well. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus. Love them. But don't stop calling sin for what it is. The apostles certainly were never afraid to do so.
I'm sick of this idea of holding to the claim of "realist" when we are dilluting our own Christian ideas and maxims. God's design was not just for the sake of random religious rules, they are the maxim for one's health and for a robust society. We can't prosecute or have the state take same-sex couples children (to inject a political angle), but I most certainly can cry aloud when that once "alternative lifestyle" is being pushed in the homes of families everywhere as innocent, cute and cuddly. It's poison!
Abortion is a grim reality. Sad is the day when we surrender these innocent children to the lie of "I'm just a realist." There are some people that have abortions who are wonderful, kind, respectable human beings. Don't be distracted from what's right or wrong.
Jesus (who created us and therefore owns us and has the authority to determine right and wrong), as the God-man, did deal directly with the gay marriage issue, in the Bible’s New Testament, in Matthew 19:4–6:
“And He answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning “made them male and female,” and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?” So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.’”
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