No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?

[RachelRose]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Because if the Son existed as a separate being from the Father before the incarnation that makes Oneness doctrine null and void.

Agreed

Does the "sonship" end?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by RachelRose

Agreed
Does the "sonship" end?

I am awaiting an answer: and 5 hours have passed.

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



I am awaiting an answer: and 5 hours have passed.

Brother Villa

"Sonship" has several layers of meaning. But Jesus Christ as a human being, the only begotten Son of God, is immortal. Therefore He will never cease to be the only begotten Son of God. In that sense, "sonship" never ends.

Revelation 22:1-5 teaches us that we will forever be with "God and the Lamb", though They are ONE (having one throne, and being one "Him").

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

"Sonship" has several layers of meaning. But Jesus Christ as a human being, the only begotten Son of God, is
immortal. Therefore He will never cease to be the only begotten Son of God. In that sense, "sonship" never ends.

Revelation 22:1-5 teaches us that we will forever be with "God and the Lamb", though They are ONE (having one throne, and being one "Him").

Very Good.

But it does bring to an unbelieving mind a question: if WE had never been "born
again", would the son still reign in a kingdom (son-ship)? Then of what would
that kingdom consist?

Brother Villa

[RachelRose]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



I am awaiting an answer: and 5 hours have passed.

Brother Villa

Presently I am having the classic debate with a fellow at work. He already knows my thoughts on baptism in the Name of Jesus. Which in my mind is a stepping stone to explain there is no three persons in heaven.

I am new here and now understand this is a bit of a hot button for half of us.

He asked me flat out, if we get to heaven, how many will we see. I of course blurted out one. He said no way!

I think I need to change my directing when talking to this person and stick to only Bible verses because now I am painted into a corner.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by RachelRose

Presently I am having the classic debate with a fellow at work. He already knows my thoughts on baptism in the
Name of Jesus. Which in my mind is a stepping stone to explain there is no three persons in heaven.
I am new here and now understand this is a bit of a hot button for half of us.
He asked me flat out, if we get to heaven, how many will we see. I of course blurted out one. He said no way!

I think I need to change my directing when talking to this person and stick to only Bible verses because now I
am painted into a corner.

See how many of what? Persons? (1) Thrones? (1) Gods? (Consensus is 1)

Brother Villa

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Those of you that are uncomfortable in speaking of the pre-existing Sonship of Christ, how do you read Hebrews 1 - especially verse 2?

2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

anachronistic

[Aquila]

Prior to Christ's conception and birth, Jesus was the Logos.

But what does that mean?

Here is how I understand the Logos...

John 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

God is transcendent. That means that He exists beyond time and space. This makes God unperceivable to human beings. Reality as we know it is temporal, fashioned within time and space. However, to be known, God projected His light into temporal reality (time and space). This projection is the Logos, the manifest divine expression. Without it, we'd be like fish in a fish bowl not even knowing that God exists beyond our fish bowl. This projection (emanation) reveals God. Just as the Sun projects heat and light, the Logos is the very light of God. Is the Sun separate from the light and heat by which it is known? Of course not. There is distinction, but there is no separation. You cannot have sunlight without the Sun, nor the Sun without sunlight. The sunlight allows the Sun to be perceived. And so the Logos emanates from the transcendent God, allowing Him to be perceived within time and space. The Logos is therefore essential theophany. It was made a burning bush. It appeared as the Angel of the LORD. And in the New Testament, the Logos was made flesh, a man...born of a virgin. And it is by this man, Jesus, that God is now made known. It is through this Jesus that God is properly perceived. The man, Jesus Christ, is the living human tabernacle of all God's fullness of deity and power.

Below is an image that captures my conceptualization of what the Logos was prior to the creation of the material world. God's manifest divine expression within both time and space.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

"In the beginning, God spoke; and the word that God spoke was of Himself;
and because it was of Himself, it emanated from Himself, and the spoken word
is God Himself." Jn 1:1
There was no "Jesus" at the time.

"And the word was made flesh..." (robed in humanity) ...and dwelt among
us...". A child was born, "...and you shall call his name Jesus, for he shall
save his people from their sins...in the volume of the books it is written of
me...a body have you prepared me..."

There is a difference between forgiveness and remission. The whole world was
forgiven when Jesus cried out, "Father forgive them...". At that point mercy
was extended to humanity, and it has suspended the judgment of death which
we, through sin, have incurred. There still remains a memory of sin in mercy:
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at (turned his face from); but
now commands all men every where to repent...". If forgiveness was equal to
remission, no repentance would be needed! Therefore forgiveness corresponds
to a reprieve (stay of execution) from judgment.

On the other hand, Remission is the blotting out/cleansing of sin. In remission,
there is no more memory of sin! It is tantamount to a complete pardon.

"Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the
remission of sins..."

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

There is a difference between forgiveness and remission.

The Greek does not allow for a difference between forgiveness and remission. Its the same Greek word translated as either forgiveness or remission.

The whole world was
forgiven when Jesus cried out, "Father forgive them...".

That means nobody since then has needed to be forgiven. There is no Scripture which says "the whole world was forgiven".

At that point mercy
was extended to humanity, and it has suspended the judgment of death which
we, through sin, have incurred.

That means nobody since then is under sentence of death, which means everyone - EVERYONE - is already saved. As for mercy being extended, God has always been extending mercy. The birth of Messiah was an act of mercy from God toward man. The calling of Abraham, the saving of Noah, all were examples of God's mercy extended toward man. To suggest " it is at THAT point mercy was extended" means previous to THAT point, no mercy had been extended. Which is not true.

There still remains a memory of sin in mercy:

Psalm 25:6-7 show that your statement here is incorrect, or at least badly worded. Jeremiah 31:34 shows that in forgiveness, God does NOT remember sin.

If forgiveness was equal to
remission, no repentance would be needed! Therefore forgiveness corresponds
to a reprieve (stay of execution) from judgment.

On the other hand, Remission is the blotting out/cleansing of sin. In remission,
there is no more memory of sin! It is tantamount to a complete pardon.

"Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the
remission of sins..."

Brother Villa

Forgiveness and remission are identical, and nobody is forgiven of their sins unless and until they repent and receive apostolic Christian baptism.