Hell In Question

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

God is no "respecter of persons" I believe what the scriptures teach, all death will be destroyed. If death holds any of those created in the image of God, who contained the breath of God's life then death will not have been destroyed. Death would still reign, evil would not be vanquished, God would not have all things under Himself, Satan would still hold some of God's processions.

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[Aquila]

I found this song very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDgO...eature=related

[Aquila]

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I found this song very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDgO...eature=related

The words of this song are consistant with 1 Tim. 4:9-10:

4:9 This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance. 4:10 In fact this is why we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The words of this song are consistant with 1 Tim. 4:9-10:

4:9 This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance. 4:10 In fact this is why we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

Couldn't that "especially" be a King James-ism?

I've still been thinking about annihilationism some, and to me it's one of the better views. I do not see how GOD can not be considered the one who has all things under HIS feet, who completely annihilates and vanquishes the wicked. I do not see how GOD would bring everyone back to HIM, since there are many that WANT to reject them- why would GOD force love on these people, crakjak?

-Bro. Alex

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Couldn't that "especially" be a King James-ism?

I've still been thinking about annihilationism some, and to me it's one of the better views. I do not see how GOD can not be considered the one who has all things under HIS feet, who completely annihilates and vanquishes the wicked. I do not see how GOD would bring everyone back to HIM, since there are many that WANT to reject them- why would GOD force love on these people, crakjak?

-Bro. Alex

Bro. Alex, I'd like to chime in here, if you don't mind bro....

You bring up some very good points. But here's the situation...God loves man. He's the father of us all. What kind of father would annihilate his own children, especially if he were all knowing and all powerful...meaning he knows what it will take to purify them...and is perfectly capable of doing it? Many say they don't see "how" God can bring everyone back to him. Is anything to hard for our LORD?

Why would God force love on these people? That's a good question. I have a two year old little boy. Today he got away from us in a parking lot at a restaurant. I forced my love upon him by chasing him down, grabbing him by the hand, and scolding him. Yes, I put the fear in him...because I love him. I pursued him...because I love him. I forced my love upon him because I love him. What kind of father would I be if I didn't force my love upon my child? What kind of father would I be if I just let my child run around in the parking lot with only a stern warning and a brooding face? And then one has to consider...God loves everyone....period. He died for all mankind. Every last one of us. Even the most vial sinner is a priceless child in God's sight. He might bring judgment upon them in this life to bring them to repentance or to minimize the leavening effect of their wickedness on others...but he still loves them. If one believes in Universal Reconciliation one believes that God's love never ceases to beckon to the souls of even the most wicked of sinners. Yes, there are those who refuse and reject God's love right now. And from a UR perspective many will reject God's love and authority even after death. And these will feel the flames of Hell until their will breaks and their knees bow and their tongues begin to worship. As they do...they will be pulled by God's love out of those flames and embraced by the father of lights who loves them and died for them.

On a more spiritual level...UR does believe in a type of annihilationism. The fires of Hell will punish the wicked. But not with the goal of mere torturous retribution...but with the intent of purifying them. The more wicked...the more purification that will be necessary (many stripes vs. few stripes). These flames will not only break the will of those who are lost, but it will "destroy" their very souls in the sense that it will destroy their very wickedness, breaking them down and purifying them as a refiner's fire purifies gold or silver. For some the process may take centuries, others may take millennia, yet others may experience the flames for a time unmeasurable in human words....but in the end every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord, every knee shall bow to the glory of God the Father. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. If you will not be broken in the shadow of the cross...He will break you in the flames.

Acts 3:21 (NIV)
21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Psalms 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

I'm not convinced that UR is absolutely correct in all points. But I do know this...I've struggled with some of the deepest depression over Satan's victory with mankind. It gets to the point where one just wants to give up hope. UR teaches that God is both fearsome...and just. That God isn't a monster who tortures people forever...but he purifies and restores them. Their rejection of him makes this process more painful for their souls.

It seems to me like most of us drift back into a UR perspective automatically when ministering to those who have lost a loved one who didn't know the truth. We often tell them that their unbelieving loved one is, "in the hands of the Lord", and we assure them that God is, "a just and loving God". Who will look at a grieving son and tell him that his mother is going to be roasted by God in a burning Hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever? The Spirit seems to check us when dealing with this situation. Our "religion" and tradition speaks of eternal torture and torment. It seems that the Spirit teaches us otherwise. I asked a fundamentalist three-stepper preacher about my grandfather after his passing. With tears in my eyes I said, "He didn't make it. I'll never see him again." My fundamentalist preacher friend, who is hard as nails, felt the Holy Ghost and said, "Brother, we don't know the mind of God. Let God judge the soul. I can't honestly say you'll never see him again." You see, "religion", would demand that he tell me that my grandfather was burning in a devil's Hell and that I would never see him again. The Spirit lead him to say otherwise.

UR simply places no limits or boundaries on God's love and grace. It proposes that not even death can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. It gives God room to punish and restore as God sees fit. I imagine that if a soul chose to continue to refuse this loving grace for eternity...it would remain in Hell for eternity. But UR allows for the Lord to redeem a soul even from the flames of Hell, for He alone has the keys to Death and Hell. UR's ultimate position is that no matter how many eons it takes...eventually...all things will be restored.

Christ came into the world to save the world. Jesus wins. God wins.

[Aquila]

Here's an interesting text for conversation....

Romans 8:38-39
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It seems to me like most of us drift back into a UR perspective automatically when ministering to those who have lost a loved one who didn't know the truth. We often tell them that their unbelieving loved one is, "in the hands of the Lord", and we assure them that God is, "a just and loving God". Who will look at a grieving son and tell him that his mother is going to be roasted by God in a burning Hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever? The Spirit seems to check us when dealing with this situation. Our "religion" and tradition speaks of eternal torture and torment. It seems that the Spirit teaches us otherwise. I asked a fundamentalist three-stepper preacher about my grandfather after his passing. With tears in my eyes I said, "He didn't make it. I'll never see him again." My fundamentalist preacher friend, who is hard as nails, felt the Holy Ghost and said, "Brother, we don't know the mind of God. Let God judge the soul. I can't honestly say you'll never see him again." You see, "religion", would demand that he tell me that my grandfather was burning in a devil's Hell and that I would never see him again. The Spirit lead him to say otherwise.

When my great-grandfather died, this past summer- I let as many people as I could, know where he was headed!

Also, a lot of the verses you use have to do with the church and not the lost. Those verses in Romans 8 have to do with the church receiving encouragement, and Acts 3:21 is followed by verse 23 which says:

"21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."

-Bro. Alex

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

When my great-grandfather died, this past summer- I let as many people as I could, know where he was headed!

Also, a lot of the verses you use have to do with the church and not the lost. Those verses in Romans 8 have to do with the church receiving encouragement, and Acts 3:21 is followed by verse 23 which says:

"21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."

-Bro. Alex

Universalism doesn't deny that a soul is destroyed if they do not obey the Gospel. The question is… in what sense are they destroyed? Those who believe in eternal torments believe that they are destroyed in the sense of eternal spiritual ruin while hopelessly in torments forever as retribution from an angry God. Annihilationists believe that they are they literally "destroyed" in the sense of ceasing to exist. Universalists believe that a soul is "destroyed" in several ways...first, the soul may actually be judged in this life and destroyed from among their people per the wrath of God. The soul is destroyed in the sense of spiritual ruin...they never achieved all that God intended them to be. They are destroyed in the sense of their self will and sinfulness will be burned out of their spirits. This form of destruction is rehabilitative, just as gold or silver is broken down and liquefied by the refiner’s fire so that the dross can be removed. They are destroyed in the sense that they will never be all that God intended them to be, they will be ruled and reigned over, never sharing in the reign of the Saints. They are destroyed in the sense that their lives on earth were a total waste. Ultimately, while they are reconciled to God, they are “destroyed” in that they are left in a state of spiritual ruin, never being all that God intended to be.

Here’s a very important question. How would inflicting torture upon your grandfather forever, and ever, and ever, and ever please God? After billions upon billions of eons wherein your grandfather is screaming and pleading for mercy, his life on earth will be but a vague notion of what appears to have been. Nothing he could have ever done would justify such a fate. The vast majority of his existence after all these eons will have been spent in torment...still with no end in sight. What purpose will this serve in God’s eternal economy? Is God so retributive that he is only satisfied by inflicting such horror on a person? Is it entertainment? Or is it perhaps a medieval doctrine (like the Trinity) that is based on an Augustinian mistranslation of very complex Greek texts… second hand from the Latin (since he didn’t know Greek) to fuel and justify the most brutal of inquisitions?

Consider some things…

I Corinthians 15:22.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The implication from Paul here is one of equal comparisons. In Adam “all” die. No exceptions. This extends to all of mankind. And then this is put on equal comparison with Christ…in Christ shall “all” be made alive. For this to make any the sense the two have to be comparably equal. Else Paul would have to have truly said, “…in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall some be made alive.” If “all” doesn’t mean “all” without any exception in both clauses, Paul’s comparing apples to oranges.

Consider also what Christ said…

John 12:32.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Did he mean “all” or not? Do we take him literally? Do we trust that he is able to accomplish what he set out to accomplish?

Paul wrote…

Philippians 2:10-11.
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Will every knee bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord??? Please notice…this is to the glory of God, not a forced confession. Forced confessions do not give God glory.

Notice how inclusive the following verse is…

Ephesians 1: 9-11.
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What is his will?

First Timothy 2: 1-6.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Consider also…

Colossians 1: 16 and 20.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Does his intercession ever cease???

Hebrews 7:25.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

No. Christ’s intercession will never cease to seek the lost…even if they be in the lowest hell.

I Corinthians 15: 22 & 26.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. … The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If the last enemy to be destroyed is death itself…the very state of death must be vanquished. One cannot say that death is destroyed if 99% of humanity is still held in its grip. For death to be destroyed the very state of death must be replaced with life (both physical and spiritual).

Regarding Israel, note what Paul said….

Romans 11:26.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

My father-in-law was Jewish and never accepted Jesus Christ. If he’s lost forever, Paul’s statement is false.

Consider these texts also…

Psalms 86: 9.
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 22: 27.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

All nations (peoples) whom God has made… those who have forsaken the Lord will remember and turn unto him, and all kindreds of the nations shall worship before him. No exceptions.

Psalms 66: 3-4.
Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

God’s enemies will submit…they will not exist in everlasting rebellion. All the earth will worship before him. None will be left cursing or rejecting his Lordship.

Clearly these speak of a universality beyond just the church.

Now…here’s a serious consideration. If Universalism were true…what kind of statements would you expect the Bible to say? Then compare that to the verses above.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I did not say that I believed my great grandad is in eternal-perpetual torment, I can see annihilationism, but I can not see UR. I am not at my computer now, I might write more later.

-Bro. Alex