Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

[Rico]

Ooops! I just realized it's 1:15 in the morning. I have to take calls tomorrow, so I need to get off here. I will be sure to check on your answer, Pel, but it will have to be tomorrow. Have a good night, Bro.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

He came to this world to save us from????

Sin and death, perhaps?

It's a desperate attempt ...

Saved in this context of course ... we mean regereration ... initial salvation ....

In some circles one can never be saved ... never.

Just more hoops.

I suspect Rico has another question or two behind his question. But if he wants me to give him a precise answer I demand first a precise question.

How can our hypothetical sinner have received "forgiveness" for his sins and not be saved?

Even if he had to get that forgiveness through water baptism or by crawling on his knees up the Scalinata della Trinità dei Monti, if he received "forgiveness" under anyone's regime, then he is saved according to that regime.

For my understanding of the Gospel, if he received the forgiveness of sins through faith in the work that Jesus Christ did for him, and he has faith in Christ's work of salvation, then our hypothetical is "saved."

Forgiveness of sins = salvation (Matthew 1:21).

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Rico

Ooops! I just realized it's 1:15 in the morning. I have to take calls tomorrow, so I need to get off here. I will be sure to check on your answer, Pel, but it will have to be tomorrow. Have a good night, Bro.

Get some good sleep, Bro. Take care.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Rico

Trust me, Pel. There are people here who think all it takes to be saved is to ask for forgiveness of their sins. I am presenting an example of someone repeatedly asking for forgiveness without ever doing anything else. Just asking for forgiveness on a regular basis; that's all. Is that person saved? Is that what Jesus meant when He said, "He that endureth 'til the end shall be saved"?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Repenting is not just asking for forgiveness ... this is red herring.

Perhaps Daniel... but then again?

People in our culture are so indued with the "works based" plan of salvation that some folks treat even repentance like a work. They feel if they make a big enough show then surely God will be impressed. Perhaps Rico is thinking of an experience with someone like this.

Maybe I can't really answer the question, either. I trust and believe and have faith that this is what it takes for each of us. Perhaps there are hypotheticals that can be constructed whereby trust and faith in Jesus Christ are negated. If so, then I'm a bit out of my league there.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Maybe I'm not following you here... If your sins are forgiven you are "saved," at least in the very most important way.

I think we err when we try and break the whole thing down into different "steps." There is only one "step": Get saved. Once you've made that step your life will involve many other things that could be said to be "steps" - you're on a journey now, after all. But "getting saved" is just one "thing" to do on your to-do list of life, not several things.
...

What we call the "three-step" plan of salvation, or what is referred to some times as the message of water and Spirit, does indeed break the "salvation" experience or the "new birth" experience and some times even the "justification" (depending on which teacher is being followed) experience into three definite events which may occur miles apart in distance and years apart in time. A person can call out sincerely to God for mercy, receive forgiveness, and live a radically transformed life for the rest of his/her life but not be "really" justified/saved/born again because step two (water baptism) and step three (Spirit baptism) have not happened. Or, a person can go through a life changing experience, receive forgiveness, then follow that up with water baptism (properly administered of course) and still not be saved or justified or be considered a child of God if the experience of speaking with tongues does not occur some time in that person's life. Then, there is the other alternative. A person can receive God's mercy and forgiveness, receive the Holy Ghost baptism, and live a life of consecration and service to the Lord but not be justified/saved/born again because the "proper words" were never spoken during the water baptism ritual.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...
When Ananias spoke to Paul about "washing away your sins..." he wasn't saying, "Paul you only got half-saved when Jesus found you..." Though Paul's conversion appeared to require a fuller experience than just a baffling experience out on the road. For all intents and purposes, Paul was still asking, "Who art thou Lord...?"

Paul asked, "Who art thou Lord?" and the Lord told him who He was. I think Paul realized right then that the Rabbi named Jesus that he had been fighting was indeed God's chosen and anointed Lord through whom He would rule. The next recorded words from Sau's lips were, (according to some versions of the Bible) "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?" In my opinion, Saul was already a changed man. He'd been converted. In Baptist theological terms he had "gotten saved" or he was a "new creature" or he had been "borned again." He hit the ground a sinner and got up a saint. Broken, humble, and changed he was led into town like a helpless child and spent three days praying. According to "three-steppers" he was one third saved. He hadn't really been born again because he hadn't received the "Holy Ghost speaking in tongues" experience. And, even after he received that by the laying on of Ananias' hands, even though his sins had been forgiven 3 days ago, those sins were still clinging to him, soiling him and making him unclean and unfit for heaven because they had not been washed away by a minister who know the secret word formula which had to be spoken when the baptismal ritual took place.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

That makes no sense. You are forgiven, but you are not forgiven until you are baptized. LoL.

I had a pastor, a recognized Bible teacher in OP circles, a Dist. Supt. of the Ohio Dist. of the UPC. He taught that humans could not forgive sins but they could remit them by baptizing people in Jesus' name. This was based on his interpretation of John 20:23 and Acts 2:38 in the KJV.

[SDG]

bump.

[U376977]

I have heard it preached,
I was saved, I am saved, I shall be saved. (how is that for 3 step).
Meaning I was saved when the blood was shed at calvalry. I am saved by accepting it by "grace thru faith." I shall be saved at the final "redemption of the body."

Make sense?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by U376977

I have heard it preached,
I was saved, I am saved, I shall be saved. (how is that for 3 step).
Meaning I was saved when the blood was shed at calvalry. I am saved by accepting it by "grace thru faith." I shall be saved at the final "redemption of the body."

Make sense?

Paul wrote in Ephesians, to the saints (those already saved - Eph 1:1) at Ephesus, that they were saved by grace through faith and not of works...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Paul wrote that to the church in Ephesus - let's see what Paul did with some he found in Ephesus...
Now Paul in Ephesus in Acts 19:1-6 found John's disciples and corrected them and re-baptized them in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost
Were they in Ephesus in Acts 19 saved by grace through faith and not of works? Yes they were...
They were saved by grace in that what Jesus did on the cross, we did not deserve
And through their faith they obeyed Paul and were re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost
In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were saved by grace through faith, just like the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles
In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were not saved by the works of the OT law, just like Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles weren't either
There you have it - apostolic doctrine contains salvation by grace through faith and not of works

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Works = works of the law
Eph 2:9 - works - ergon - er'-gon - From ?????? ergo? (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Every where you see "works of the law" in the NT the greek word for works is ergon - just like in Eph 2:9
Works of the law - works = ergon - Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Deeds of the law - deeds = ergon - Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Another reason we know that "works" in Eph 2:9 is the works of the law is in the context of Eph 2...
Eph 2:10 We are his workman ship
Eph 2:11 says Wherefore remember... - or because of everything i just said, remember...
Eph 2:12 you were lost...
Eph 2:13 but now you are in christ jesus...
Eph 2:14 For... = in greek, assigning a reason for what was said before...
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
To paraphrase - Eph 2:10-15 - We are his workmanship...Wherefore remember...you were lost...but now you are in Jesus...For what he did...Having abolished...the law
The CONTEXT of Eph 2:8-15 shows that works in Eph 2:9 = works of the OT law

Many times in scripture Paul contrasted the 2 belief systems - OT works of the law and the NT belief system of faith in Jesus

In Acts 5, Peter and John were taken into custody - were Peter and John working the works of men or of God?
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Peter and John were working the works of God because it hasn't come to nought for 2000 years; just like Jesus did the works of God as our example...
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Were Peter and John doing OT works of God? No, they were doing NT works - to be initially saved? No, they were already converted
Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

After Paul was done with those in Ephesus in Acts 19, they were saved by grace through faith and not of works - they were baptized in the name of Jesus and rec'd the Holy Ghost - born again of the water and Spirit, just like the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles

What did Paul preach? - works = ergon - Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.