Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

So if a rapist impregnates an underage girl in a community, that is just cause to detain ALL the children in the whole community (for their own protection) against their will?

We better round up every kid, from every inner city to protect them from any would-be nieghborhood pimps.

Stephen you are stretching things a little here I think. And who said all the children are being detained against their will? Maybe some of them wanted out so they would not have to spend the rest of their lives having more babies for old men.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

I am sure Texas has laws against bygamy. I am thinking the reason they did not take the men but the children is if they took the men without evidence it would not be legal. But if children are in harm's way they can be removed by the state. And the evidence of abuse is young girls that are pregnant or have already had babies.

I agree that the State has some latitude in taking children out of abusive situations. However, in order for those children to become wards of the State, the State's allegations have to be proven in court. This is where I believe the State of Texas is going to have some serious problems. It is one thing to bring a case against an individual, but we are talking about a whole group of people, an organization, a church. This is why I believe, if the State of Texas ultimately succeeds, this is going to have a negative ripple effect throughout the nation.

[Nina]

From an online article:


....history has shown that raids on alternative religious communities aren't necessarily effective, said Stephen Kent, a sociology professor at the University of Alberta who has studied polygamy for about 10 years.
Incursions by law enforcement may be meant to protect children, but Kent said history shows "in almost all instances the children get returned to their parents."
That's what happened several years after the 1953 raid on Short Creek (now Hildale and Colorado City), when 236 women and children were taken into Arizona state custody for two years before they were allowed to return home.
The images that emerged from that raid also proved a public relations disaster for Arizona, whose governor was kicked out of office in the next election. It also scared off authorities in Utah and Arizona, who essentially would leave polygamists alone for the next 50 years.
Global raids in the 1980s and 1990s on the Children of God, a group founded in 1968 that's now known as The Family International, removed at least 700 children. They were later returned and no adults were convicted of crimes, even though law enforcement authorities had seen videotapes "clearly showing sexual violation of children," Kent said.
Like many watching the Texas story unfold, Kent worries that unless the allegedly abused 16-year-old caller is found, the original search warrant, and the subsequent evidence, will be thrown out, as FLDS attorneys already have demanded in court.
More worrisome, though, is that the children are subject to sexual exploitation, Kent said. "Underaged children have been sexual targets in many of these communities for decades."
But criminal charges for sexual abuse are a more recent phenomenon.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Rico

I agree that the State has some latitude in taking children out of abusive situations. However, in order for those children to become wards of the State, the State's allegations have to be proven in court. This is where I believe the State of Texas is going to have some serious problems. It is one thing to bring a case against an individual, but we are talking about a whole group of people, an organization, a church. This is why I believe, if the State of Texas ultimately succeeds, this is going to have a negative ripple effect throughout the nation.

Organized crime is illegal in Texas Rico, which this may very well fall under. And this Church as you called it's leader used and facilitated it's "relegion" to harm children so I don't think this sect of LDS would be considered a church by the state. And it didn't start in Texas this is where it is ending. Mr. Jeff's has already been convicted of sex crimes in Utah. And awaiting trial in Arizona I believe. He and his brother and one of the wives were stopped by a trooper who found out it was him and he was on the 10 most wanted by the FBI.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Stephen you are stretching things a little here I think. And who said all the children are being detained against their will? Maybe some of them wanted out so they would not have to spend the rest of their lives having more babies for old men.

I can only go by what we hear and see. And that is women and children BOTH crying and begging not to be separated. If as you say, some want out (of an abusive situation) and cannot, then they should be helped. Have you heard or seen something we have not?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Organized crime is illegal in Texas Rico, which this may very well fall under. And this Church as you called it's leader used and facilitated it's "relegion" to harm children so I don't think this sect of LDS would be considered a church by the state. And it didn't start in Texas this is where it is ending. Mr. Jeff's has already been convicted of sex crimes in Utah. And awaiting trial in Arizona I believe. He and his brother and one of the wives were stopped by a trooper who found out it was him and he was on the 10 most wanted by the FBI.

Whether we agree on it or not, this is a church group, a nationally known one at that. The State would have to prove it isn't a church group in court, which I highly doubt they would be able to accomplish. Anyway, I think we are starting to stray from the issue at hand. lol

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I can only go by what we hear and see. And that is women and children BOTH crying and begging not to be separated. If as you say, some want out (of and abusive situation) and cannot, then they should be helped. Have you heard or seen something we have not?

Of course both children and the women did not want to be separtated. That is natural. I don't neccessarily agree with the mother's, grandmother's and children being separated, but I am sure it was hard to find out from children with a mother or grandmother present what was really going on at the compound. Secrecy and fear are the two most common reasons child abuse, molestation, and rape are not reported. Although there have been improvements in the ways the state questions children in these situations, the size of this investigation is mind boggling and is strectching the state's recourse and resources. The state must stay on legal grounds and follow the laws of the state of Texas, they cannot let these children be harmed further. In the state of Texas if you know a child is being abused in any way and you don't report it you can be prosecuted, parent or not.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Rico

Whether we agree on it or not, this is a church group, a nationally known one at that. The State would have to prove it isn't a church group in court, which I highly doubt they would be able to accomplish. Anyway, I think we are starting to stray from the issue at hand. lol

I understand this Rico, they are an offshoot of LDS and they have a right to relegious freedom's in this country just like any other. They do not however have the right to harm other's under the guise of their relegion. The state is not going after a relegion or church, they are actually going after criminals that are using relegious freedoms to commit crimes.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Of course both children and the women did not want to be separtated. That is natural. I don't neccessarily agree with the mother's, grandmother's and children being separated, but I am sure it was hard to find out from children with a mother or grandmother present what was really going on at the compound. .

This is my main complaint. In Missouri the dog kennels get picketed for doing this to puppies.

If there is evidence the law must follow it. But in the process they should be detaining perpetrators and suspects instead of victims.

[Dimples]

Sad situation indeed.