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  #151  
Old 12-06-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
How do the verses that say we are saved by faith and others that say baptism saves us or without the Spirit of Christ we are none of his all mesh together to form one cohesive doctrine of salvation?
Great question. Answering the second part of the question first, I would stress that the salvation by grace alone through faith alone position absolutely involves possessing the Spirit of Christ. I think it needs to be recognized that the presence of life in the heart made alive to God is the presence of the Spirit of Christ. Paul said he was crucified with Christ nevertheless lived by virtue of Christ living in him (Galatians 2:20). The Spirit of Christ, i.e., the Spirit of Life, is that which quickens the soul from death to life. The believer is passed from death to life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 1John 5:12). Therefore, he who truly has a heart of faith definitely possesses the Spirit of Christ and are His.

It is my opinion that teaching incremental Spirit reception, as if the Spirit was some sort of commodity to be dished out, has hindered many from realizing that once life is present in the heart, the Spirit of God is that life and the individual has all of the Spirit he is ever going to get. The Spirit is present in its totality of potential at its first appearance in the heart. It is not that a man progressively receives more Spirit as his walk continues befores God, it is that a man progressively learns to yield more and more to that Spirit which brought his dead heart to life and now continues to perpetuate that life by sticking around. It is not the Spirit which grows incrementally, it is the man. As the song says, "I must become less, so much less, that You become greater still." The Spirit, present at faith, subsequently becomes more and more manifest in the life of the believer as the believer learns to more and more yield himself to God.

Those who believe and thus possess the Spirit are admonished to be fully controlled, i.e., filled, with that Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). Being "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Scripture does not speak of regeneration, it speaks of the Spirit controlling/overwhelming the fully yielded believer to the point of manifestation. God wants to manifest himself through us. He gave his life for us, that he could give his life to us, in order to live his life through us. We first receive this life at the moment the repenting heart converts to Christ in faith (Acts 11:18). The Spirit can subsequently become manifest as God sees fit in the life of the yielding saint.

Concerning the baptismal passages: next post
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  #152  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:31 PM
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"He that believes [the Gospel] and is baptized will be saved."

First, a couple points to consider concerning Mark 16:16...

1) Is the passage authentic? Many believe it was not contained in the original manuscript of Mark. I do not lean toward this position.

2) If authentic, is baptism necessarily connected to salvation as significantly as belief? Only the unbeliever is said to be damned, not the unbaptized. Baptism can be seen as a token of saving faith in the Gospel and, as such, would not, itself, be saving. For example, the wedding ring is a token of the union of man and wife, but it cannot be said that the person who does not wear a ring is unwed. With the statement "He who is legally married and wears a wedding ring shall be considered wed; he who isn't legally married is unwed" it doesn't follow that he who does not wear a ring is unwed. The ring stands to declare the existence of a marriage, as baptism stands to declare the existence of salvation.

I guess it could be approached this way as well: He that believeth and is baptized [and goes to church regularly and gives of his income and sings in the choir and always prays over his food before he eats and is always nice to his fellow man] shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. While the extras may bear witness to salvation they do not aid in effecting salvation. The addition of baptism in Mark 16:16 does not necessitate the understanding that baptism is involved in salvation.

Then there's another point which might help the segue from Mark 16:16 to 1Peter 3:21. It deals with confession......I ask for your patience with the length of my next post as I explain.
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  #153  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:35 PM
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Concerning being "saved" by baptism:

Our salvation plays itself out before God and man. This means we have two very different witnesses viewing our personal salvation from two very different perspectives. There is a spiritual side of our salvation which God alone knows; a spiritual salvation resulting in a spiritual relationship and fellowship with the Almighty who is Spirit. God is a Spirit and we, who are the circumcised of heart and spirit, worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24; Romans 2:29; Philippians 3:3). The human spirit is invisible to the naked eye, yet God saved our very spirit. This internal spiritual side of salvation is played out before a God who alone knows the hearts of men and who alone is capable of exploring every recess of the soul with His Spirit. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16). Yet, apart from this internal side of salvation there is another side, the external.

Salvation which takes place within the confines of the soul also plays itself out before another witness.... humanity. Man, who does not know what dwells in the confines of the soul of another, can bear witness only to what he can see. He can only make calls of judgment based on those things he witnesses visually and/or in a very tangible way. Our human peers make judgment on our internal condition by what they see manifested in our lives. That which is IN a man, which can be seen by God alone, must somehow be made manifest externally in order for humanity to judge. This makes the witness of man fallible because it leaves open the opportunity for deception. The human witness can be deceived because it is possible for someone to exhibit characteristics of a saved condition while in reality being in an unsaved condition before God. Never-the-less, our salvation plays itself out 1) before the infallible God himself and 2) before our fallible human peers. So, how do we, who do not know the hearts of men, identify the Saved? How do we identify the Ecclesia? On what criteria did God say His Church was to be built?

In reference to Peter's confession of Jesus as Christ and Son of the living God, Christ said to Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia)" (Matthew 16:15-18). The church was to be built upon the rock of the external confession of Christ. The "fallible" Apostles were to accept within the corporate body, called the Church, ONLY those who confessed Christ. Yeah, yeah, you might say... this is all very basic, so what's my point?

The word of faith preached by the Apostles was, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9-11)

Man believes "with the heart" unto righteousness. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:22). The believer's faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and brings justification before God (Acts 13:38-39; Romans 5:1). YET, man also confesses with his mouth unto salvation. Why should we confess unto salvation if we've already believed unto righteousness? If we're already considered rightstanding before God what need is there for an external confession of the mouth?

Answer: The Church was to be built on a confession of Christ. Confession of Christ was prerequisite for being added to the Church.

Though God, who knows the heart, recognizes the saved condition of the believer's soul at the moment of faith, there is still need for the Church body, who does not know the heart, to accept that believer into their rank and file as being saved. The man who has, in his heart, believed unto righteousness and is thus saved before God, is to, with his mouth, confess to his peers his faith in Christ and be accepted into the Christian community. Salvation is thus witnessed both internally by God and externally by humanity. Water baptism was the public act by which a believer was accepted into the Christian family at large and CONSIDERED to be saved not by God but by a man's believing peers. The man who believes with his heart unto righteousness (before God) and confesses this belief with his mouth (before men) is to be baptized into the corporate body of believers and welcomed by the Church as being SAVED.

Looking at Mark 16:16 with this in mind: He that believeth (unto righteousness) and is baptized shall be [considered by all to be] saved. He that believeth not (unto righteousness) shall be damned.

Emphasis is on faith unto righteousness before God. Only those who had believed unto righteousness (thus unto salvation before God) were to be baptized and considered as saved BY ALL. Spiritual salvation comes at the moment the heart believes unto righteousness. The man saved by faith confesses Christ and is judged by his hearing peers to be saved. The salvation of the spirit is made known through confession. Since no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (1Corinthians 12:3) and Christ said His church would be built on confession of Him (Matthew 16:15-18) the Church is to accept a confession of Christ as sufficient criteria for addition to the body.

"The like figure whereunto baptism doth now also save us..." (1Peter 3:21)

Now to the question, "Does baptism save?" YES, but only in that it is that act by which the Church accepts you within its ranks and thereby MARKS you as being saved in their eyes. A study on the word "answer (eperotema)" in 1Peter 3:21 helps us to understand that water baptism was a time of question and response (i.e., of interrogation). At baptism one was called to give that confession of the mouth which bore witness to the righteousness received by faith of the heart. Faith unto righteousness and confession are prerequisites for baptism into the Christian community (Acts 8:36-38). The man who confesses with his mouth already dwells in God, and God in him (1John 4:15) because he has, in his heart, already believed unto righteousness before God (Romans 10:10). Does baptism save us before God? NO. With the heart, man believes unto righteousness. The man who enters into salvation by faith alone confesses Christ and via the "eperotema of a good conscience" (i.e., baptism) he is RECOGNIZED to be saved by his peers as well.

Some have offered that the "good conscience" is established in baptism:

At baptism, the good conscience is established but not to the individual being baptized, nor to God. It is established only to those hearing the confession of the baptismal candidate's good conscience. The good conscience itself is not established in the baptizand's heart at the time of baptism, it is only declared to the community. The good conscience is not achieved at baptism, it is proclaimed. The interrogation at baptism concerned the existence of a good conscience, i.e., whether the person to be baptized had cleared his conscience by placing his trust in the sin remitting work of Christ as having been effective on his behalf. His proclamation of trust at baptism did not "establish" the existence of his good conscience. His proclamation simply bore witness to the good conscience which indeed existed at the moment of faith "prior to the decree." The good conscience came when man fully trusted that his sins had been dealt with by Christ on the cross. He was then baptized.

Only those who receive salvation through faith alone in Christ alone are to subsequently be baptized and accepted into the Church community as being "saved." Rightstanding and peace of conscience before God exist prior to getting wet because faith unto righteousness exists (Romans 5:1; 10:10). Trust in the effectiveness of Calvary brings peace to the believer's conscience because he is justified before God not by baptism but by faith.

I believe this is how the faith and baptismal verses "mesh together."
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  #154  
Old 12-07-2007, 07:03 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
In my opinion we as humans are stuck with the sinful nature (in our flesh) until we are resurrected/changed.
I agree.
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  #155  
Old 12-08-2007, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
So, in view of your understanding of creation, how do you explain tehôm (or Tiamat) in the beginning with God before anything was created?
Sorry, for butting in here. I know you asked this of Mizpeh, Pelathias, but I'm thinking your question would only a pose a problem to someone who thought God's creative work began with the words "Let there be light."

I would suggest that Genesis gives us an account of an ex nihilo creation and moves on to show an ex materia progression. The matter from which all things came was created in verse one, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." This earth matter was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the tehom. The Spirit of God then moved on the matter created from nothing and the account progresses through the days.

Day 1 would thus involve not only the light/darkness - day/night of verses 3-5, but the "building material" itself from verses 1-2. The material for creation would have come "from nothing" but the progression of creation would be ex materia.

Your thoughts...
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  #156  
Old 12-09-2007, 12:59 PM
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Mizpeh, another suggestion for understanding 1Peter 3:21 has been to recognize the baptism as being "spirit baptism" and not "water baptism."

I do not personally lean toward this view but it is a possibility.
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