Sabbath and bible feasts

[diakonos]

Uhh… In our present culture dressing up is vanishing. Has been for 20 years or so.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

If you look through religious history you will find that styles have ebbed and flowed over the years. At one point if you "dressed up" they would have kicked you out if you were roo "fancy".


Ive found that the origins of "dressing up" was more about making people comfortable with wealth desparity in a congregation by getting everyone to dress the same.

So, if you are a leader in your congregation, with the authority to make those kinds of decisions, how would you show up to teach in the holy convocation event? at what point would you ask someone else you allow to stand and preach that the way that person is dressed is unacceptable?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by coksiw

So, if you are a leader in your congregation, with the authority to make those kinds of decisions, how would you show up to teach in the holy convocation event? at what point would you ask someone else you allow to stand and preach that the way that person is dressed is unacceptable?

Church was designed for house to house meetings...man decided to go back to building temples. So now we not only have set and setting but now we gotta have proper costumes



As long as what is being worn is modest I really wouldnt care what they wore.


I want God to minister wherever there is a need and willing heart.


You start drawing boundaries limiting how and when He can do his work and you just end up making mountains of mishnas.


What about you?


Do you think that ones dress hinders God from moving or is it an offense to our man made culture and rules that offends US instead of Him?


What Im seeing my friend, is that its US that has the problem over rules that we ourselves have made, not God.


We project our offense in our self created righteousness and think that God does/must hold the same opinion ...the same God who walked the Earth and washed dusty, dirty,bleeding, feces covered feet and you think He has a problem with a short sleeved shirt?


He literally let a woman He met at a well who could have been a prostitute go before Him as an evangelist into Samaria declaring His works?


His cousin, John The Baptist certainly wasnt much on dressing up either except in Camel Hair chic.


If your people arent taking you seriously except you preach in "proper" attire, what are you preaching???


Ive seen all the back and forth arguments about wearing this or that.


Ive seen writings from old time holiness preachers where probably none of us would pass muster by their standards.


It grieves me that people can be so loudly adamant and certain that their mishna is the molehill to die on and the next group or generation will be just as certain about something else

[good samaritan]

All the while sinners see christians squabble over things that Christ did not teach.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

All the while sinners see christians squabble over things that Christ did not teach.

Yep.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Church was designed for house to house meetings...man decided to go back to building temples. So now we not only have set and setting but now we gotta have proper costumes

I actually disagree. It wasn't designed for house to house either. It is about the congregation, not the location.

As long as what is being worn is modest I really wouldnt care what they wore.

I don't even care even if sinners come immodest to hear the Gospel.

I want God to minister wherever there is a need and willing heart.

Amen

You start drawing boundaries limiting how and when He can do his work and you just end up making mountains of mishnas.

I've seen mighty moves of God in the middle of people formally dressed, and poorly dressed as well.

What about you?

I think your clothing sends a message depending on the setting.

Do you think that ones dress hinders God from moving or is it an offense to our man made culture and rules that offends US instead of Him?

It could, the same way a terrible breath can offend the person you are praying for, or many musical notes mistakes can be distracting, or the same way someone highly estimated by the congregation shows up and preaches on shiny pink clothing with a Santa hat on the head.

What Im seeing my friend, is that its US that has the problem over rules that we ourselves have made, not God.

I agree, but we shouldn't even need Bible to say we should cloth ourselves with moderation, which also means according to the occasion.

We project our offense in our self created righteousness and think that God does/must hold the same opinion ...the same God who walked the Earth and washed dusty, dirty,bleeding, feces covered feet and you think He has a problem with a short sleeved shirt?

I think there is a time and seasons for everything. Did you notice the same Jesus that washed the disciples feet, used the same cultural expectation to teach a parable about not being dressed for the occasion? Did you notice that the performance of the sacrifices and all that stuff by the priests required specific attire? does God actually care of the message you transmit with your attire?

He literally let a woman He met at a well who could have been a prostitute go before Him as an evangelist into Samaria declaring His works?

Again, time and season. Mercy is a priority. Spontaneous, or street, or at the house evangelism like that is fine. Nobody expects you to be dressed with a tie in a setting like that. Really, it is all common sense.

His cousin, John The Baptist certainly wasnt much on dressing up either except in Camel Hair chic.

Even the Gospel writer describing that to you is not for you to think he didn't care about his way of dressing, but for you to connect the dots with the O.T. John's clothing transmitted a message as the bearer of the Message, and people got it.

If your people arent taking you seriously except you preach in "proper" attire, what are you preaching???

No, it is not the people that won't take you seriously, it is the message you send with the way you are clothed depending on the setting where you are proclaiming that message.

Ive seen all the back and forth arguments about wearing this or that.


Ive seen writings from old time holiness preachers where probably none of us would pass muster by their standards.


It grieves me that people can be so loudly adamant and certain that their mishna is the molehill to die on and the next group or generation will be just as certain about something else

I assuredly tell you I'm not dying on that hill, but I'm clear about expectation and messages and attitude you create with the way you are clothed depending on the setting, again, I don't give Bible Studies with a tie, ... really, it is common sense.

I understand your grieve, but I think you are suffering from the pendulum effect.

[Esaias]

Honestly, I didn't see where the guy's shirt wasn't tucked in.

I also don't see any problem with how he's dressed. I certainly wouldn't spend my time focusing on how he's dressed instead of on what he's trying to say. He's not dressed like a clown with flip flops, Birkenstocks, cargo shorts, and a Hawaiian shirt.

But maybe that's just me?

[Esaias]

Matthew 22:11-14 KJV
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

This passage does NOT teach that the Lord requires special clothes for attendance at a church meeting, either on the part of a teaching elder or anyone else for that matter.

The custom at the time was for the celebrant to provide special festive garments for the guests. The man without the festive wedding garments was a man who wilfully rejected the offered clothes as a sign of disrespect to the king. Thus the harsh response. Jesus is not teaching that you must "dress up for church", but that those invited to the eschatological Wedding of the Lamb must not expect to enjoy the celebration while refusing to be clothed with the salvation and righteousness offered by the King.

Bernes:
A man which had not on a wedding garment - In ancient times, kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt, Genesis 45:22; 2 Kings 10:22; Esther 6:8; Esther 8:15. It was, of course, expected that such garments would be worn when they came into the presence of the benefactor. The garments worn on festival occasions were chiefly long white robes, and it was the custom of the person who made the feast to prepare such robes to be worn by the guests. This renders the conduct of this man more inexcusable. He came in his common and ordinary dress, as he was taken from the highway: and though he had not a garment of his own suitable for the occasion, yet one had been provided for him, if he had applied for it. His not doing it was expressive of the highest disrespect for the king. This beautifully represents the conduct of the hypocrite in the church. A garment of salvation might be his, performed by the hands of the Saviour, and dyed in his blood; but the hypocrite chooses the filthy rags of his own righteousness, and thus offers the highest contempt for that provided in the gospel. He is to blame, not for being invited - not for coming, if he would come, for he is freely invited but for offering the highest contempt to the King of Zion in presenting himself with all his filth and rags, and in refusing to be saved in the way provided in the gospel.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I think your clothing sends a message depending on the setting.


It could, the same way a terrible breath can offend the person you are praying for, or many musical notes mistakes can be distracting, or the same way someone highly estimated by the congregation shows up and preaches on shiny pink clothing with a Santa hat on the head.


...

I think there is a time and seasons for everything. Did you notice the same Jesus that washed the disciples feet, used the same cultural expectation to teach a parable about not being dressed for the occasion? Did you notice that the performance of the sacrifices and all that stuff by the priests required specific attire? does God actually care of the message you transmit with your attire?


...

No, it is not the people that won't take you seriously, it is the message you send with the way you are clothed depending on the setting where you are proclaiming that message.


I assuredly tell you I'm not dying on that hill, but I'm clear about expectation and messages and attitude you create with the way you are clothed depending on the setting, again, I don't give Bible Studies with a tie, ... really, it is common sense.

I understand your grieve, but I think you are suffering from the pendulum effect.

1. The man isn't dressed obnoxiously or clownishly or outrageously.

2. How are you not violating the principle laid down by James? You esteem a man and his message based on whether his shirt is a button up tucked in long sleeved shirt and not "business casual"? How is that contrary to what James said? You give preference to the smart business attired man but not the Florida business-casual? See number 1 above for all your objections about dressing appropriately for the setting.

3. Speaking of dressing appropriately for the setting, what rule establishes appropriate attire for an elder teaching a congregation? Who sets that rule? Did Jesus or any apostle ever give directions for special teaching garments? You mentioned the priests, so are you now defending clerical attire? There is no substantive difference between 1960s American Protestant clerical attire (business suit with or without tie) and Byzantine embroidered bishop's robes, as BOTH are special clerical attire for liturgical purposes.

4. Speaking of number 3, it seems to me that each congregation has liberty to establish its own expectations of the attire of elders based on its own local custom and circumstance. Which means WE don't get a say so since we aren't members of that congregation. Which means we ought not to strain out gnats as we swallow camels regarding our fellow servants.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matthew 22:11-14 KJV
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

This passage does NOT teach that the Lord requires special clothes for attendance at a church meeting, either on the part of a teaching elder or anyone else for that matter.

The custom at the time was for the celebrant to provide special festive garments for the guests. The man without the festive wedding garments was a man who wilfully rejected the offered clothes as a sign of disrespect to the king. Thus the harsh response. Jesus is not teaching that you must "dress up for church", but that those invited to the eschatological Wedding of the Lamb must not expect to enjoy the celebration while refusing to be clothed with the salvation and righteousness offered by the King.

Bernes:
A man which had not on a wedding garment - In ancient times, kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt, Genesis 45:22; 2 Kings 10:22; Esther 6:8; Esther 8:15. It was, of course, expected that such garments would be worn when they came into the presence of the benefactor. The garments worn on festival occasions were chiefly long white robes, and it was the custom of the person who made the feast to prepare such robes to be worn by the guests. This renders the conduct of this man more inexcusable. He came in his common and ordinary dress, as he was taken from the highway: and though he had not a garment of his own suitable for the occasion, yet one had been provided for him, if he had applied for it. His not doing it was expressive of the highest disrespect for the king. This beautifully represents the conduct of the hypocrite in the church. A garment of salvation might be his, performed by the hands of the Saviour, and dyed in his blood; but the hypocrite chooses the filthy rags of his own righteousness, and thus offers the highest contempt for that provided in the gospel. He is to blame, not for being invited - not for coming, if he would come, for he is freely invited but for offering the highest contempt to the King of Zion in presenting himself with all his filth and rags, and in refusing to be saved in the way provided in the gospel.

If you see the context of my words, what I was trying to say wasn't that that passage teaches church attires, but that there is an obvious cultural factor regarding clothing expectation, which transmit a message, and we should be observant of. The cloth you wear sets a tone, especially if it is a gathering event you will be leading, and it is very serious, and you had plenty of time to prepare for it. What is the unequivocal, clear as water, dress code in our society that shows the maximum seriousness of the event?

This subject is pretty subjective by the way. There are cultures and subcultures.