Do You Believe In Women Preachers? - Page 158

rdp · #**1571** 02-14-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't need to write my own bible when there are others that translate this just fine..

Well said Prax.... "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet." Yep..."translates just fine"......

And that is all beside the point, "Usurp Authority" does not mean "preaching the word". If it does then men are usurping authority all the time.

Is the Word of God inherently 'authoritative' Prax? Of course it is. When a woman takes this position of authority, she's out of her God-given place.

The point remains, if we are going to take the word of God literally without examining who it was written to, why or when..totally ignoring hermeneutics, then the bible says not to "teach"...doesn't say anything about preaching

Paul wrote it to Timothy "so that you may know how to behave yourself in the household of God, WHICH IS THE CHURCH...". The terms "teach" & "preach" are used interchangeably in the NT [much like the terms God & Father]. Jesus entered into the synagogue & began "to teach" the people...tell us Prax, was Jesus a "preacher"?

BTW we can discuss it, but how about an answer here? Braids...is it a sin? Yes or no?

Does the Bible condemn "braided hair"? Yes or No? Therein lies your answer!

rdp · #**1572** 02-14-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Ok so you believe women are sinning by braiding their hair? Seriously? Why my surprise? I have been in the UPC for about 25 years. I can't think of how many people I have met that believed this. From the reactions on this board it's clear it is not unheard of but very rare. The reason for the surprise is that in those 25 years the UPC never had as a position that women can't braid their hair. Rather they understood that verse in it's historical context. That is, someone in the UPC actually researched this..practiced some hermeneutics.

In it's historical context, what the Apostles were referring to was the Roman practice women had of elaborate braidings intertwining their hair with jewelry. Not merely braiding their hair. The issue was not that braiding was a sin in God's eyes, but this practice of the Roman's was a great source of competitive pride.

See, the problem is not taking the word of God how it is written. The problem is understanding HOW it is written.

Do you also practice greeting each other with a kiss?
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
2Co 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
1Co 16:20 All the brothers send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

Understood in it's historical context, this was a cultural thing for them. Paul was not giving a new command. But maybe, just maybe you really do just take the word of God like this and preach everyone in your church must kiss each other instead of a handshake.

This sort of lack of understanding is probably what led to snake handlers as well.

Strange, I conducted a SCRIPTURAL study of these passages [regarding braided hair] several years ago & could not find this FROM THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES. I've heard this argument ad nauseum but have NEVER ONCE seen any credible documentation on it. All of these arguments MUST be imported form outside of the biblical texts themselves...Hmmm??

The UPCI also teaches that it's a sin for women to cut their hair...do you also adhere to this Prax? Unfortunately for you...NO! You commit the "Argumentum ad Populum" fallacy here.

A greeting w/ a kiss is not tied to the creation model as the "women preacher's" issue is. "FOR Adam was FIRST formed, THEN Eve." You're equivocating again...but, anything to circumvent the Word of God...right Prax?

rdp · #**1573** 02-14-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The bible does not forbid a woman to preach. Taking the verses you presented it only says "teach".

The Bible DOES forbid women from "preaching," see how easy that was? Have you now stooped to the level of asserting that when one "teaches" the Word of God, they are not "preaching" ???

"Preacher" is not one of the 5 fold ministries

Is an evangelist a "preacher" Prax? Let me tell you what else is not listed as "one of the 5-fold ministries". "PROPHETESS"...Hmmmm? Watch that banana peel!

Here is an example of a prophetess
Act 21:8 On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.
Act 21:9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Where's your "example" of the "prophetess"? The text says NO SUCH THING. Hey Prax, you are not free to just make up your own Bible! BTW, if I do some electrical work around my house, am I to be considered automatically as an "Electrician"? Keep this up & you'll see the truth...check back 2mmorrow...busy!

Praxeas · #**1574** 02-14-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't need to write my own bible when there are others that translate this just fine..

Well said Prax.... "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet." Yep..."translates just fine"......

So it's ok for a woman to PREACH but not to TEACH? Ok great!

And that is all beside the point, "Usurp Authority" does not mean "preaching the word". If it does then men are usurping authority all the time.

Is the Word of God inherently 'authoritative' Prax? Of course it is. When a woman takes this position of authority, she's out of her God-given place.

The word of God is our guide for understanding and living. Preaching the word is not "taking a position of authority"...it's relaying what the bible says to man.

The point remains, if we are going to take the word of God literally without examining who it was written to, why or when..totally ignoring hermeneutics, then the bible says not to "teach"...doesn't say anything about preaching

Paul wrote it to Timothy "so that you may know how to behave yourself in the household of God, WHICH IS THE CHURCH...". The terms "teach" & "preach" are used interchangeably in the NT [much like the terms God & Father]. Jesus entered into the synagogue & began "to teach" the people...tell us Prax, was Jesus a "preacher"?

If the terms are used interchangeably you should be able to prove it. The word Teach means to INSTRUCT. The word PREACH means to PROCLAIM

BTW we can discuss it, but how about an answer here? Braids...is it a sin? Yes or no?

Does the Bible condemn "braided hair"? Yes or No? Therein lies your answer!

No the bible does NOT condemn braided hair. You will never find "condemnation" on those that braid their hair

Praxeas · #**1575** 02-14-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdp

Strange, I conducted a SCRIPTURAL study of these passages [regarding braided hair] several years ago & could not find this FROM THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES. I've heard this argument ad nauseum but have NEVER ONCE seen any credible documentation on it. All of these arguments MUST be imported form outside of the biblical texts themselves...Hmmm??

The UPCI also teaches that it's a sin for women to cut their hair...do you also adhere to this Prax? Unfortunately for you...NO! You commit the "Argumentum ad Populum" fallacy here.

A greeting w/ a kiss is not tied to the creation model as the "women preacher's" issue is. "FOR Adam was FIRST formed, THEN Eve." You're equivocating again...but, anything to circumvent the Word of God...right Prax?

See that is your problem. Study of scriptures involves knowing to whom it was written, when and why.

A greeting with a kiss is what Paul said to do. So you are being selective in what you want to believe and obey.

BTW I was not making an argument of popularity. I was making the point that the UPC looked at what the subject of braiding hair was using hermeneutics, I didn't argue their view was the right view because it was more popular.

You said I was equivocating "again"..please show me where I ever equivocated at any time. Just saying someone equivocated does not mean anything unless you can show where I did,

The fact is you are claiming Paul said something and we need to obey it as it is written and my point is you are selective in doing that because Paul said to greet each other with a Holy Kiss. Why don't you obey that too?

Praxeas · #**1576** 02-14-2011, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The bible does not forbid a woman to preach. Taking the verses you presented it only says "teach".

The Bible DOES forbid women from "preaching," see how easy that was? Have you now stooped to the level of asserting that when one "teaches" the Word of God, they are not "preaching" ???

Show the verse that says women can't preach. You said we have to go just by what the word says, how it is written. Your verses all use the word TEACH not PREACH

"Preacher" is not one of the 5 fold ministries

Is an evangelist a "preacher" Prax? Let me tell you what else is not listed as "one of the 5-fold ministries". "PROPHETESS"...Hmmmm? Watch that banana peel!

An Evangelist is an Evangelist. Oops once again we see that you don't actually take the word of God as it is written. You have to "interpret" it to fit your way of thinking. Preacher is NOT in that 5 fold list so a Preacher is NOT one of the 5 fold ministries

Here is an example of a prophetess
Act 21:8 On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.
Act 21:9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Where's your "example" of the "prophetess"? The text says NO SUCH THING. Hey Prax, you are not free to just make up your own Bible! BTW, if I do some electrical work around my house, am I to be considered automatically as an "Electrician"? Keep this up & you'll see the truth...check back 2mmorrow...busy!

A prophetess is what? Female or Male? Female...that does what? Prophecy. That's all I need. What is the definition of a Prophetess according to you?

Sister Alvear · #**1577** 02-14-2011, 07:53 PM

a prophetess is a female prophet...

Sister Alvear · #**1578** 02-14-2011, 07:59 PM

a prophetess is a female prophet...

Light · #**1579** 02-15-2011, 08:13 AM

Good Lord what a arguing spirit.
Both sides.
1578 posts.

rdp · #**1580** 02-15-2011, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Does the Bible condemn "braided hair"? Yes or No? Therein lies your answer!

No the bible does NOT condemn braided hair. You will never find "condemnation" on those that braid their hair

"OBEY them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves...for they watch for your souls..." Tell us Prax....is this referring to the Ministers of God's Word? Sounds "authoritative" to me! Sinking fast....

Why, tks. for asking, I CAN prove that the terms "teach" & "preach" are used synonymously. I wrote a book about this subject many years ago & devoted an entire Chp. to "teaching" & "preaching".

If you take the time to look up the respective terms, they are very often used side by side in the NT. Paul was "teaching" & "preaching" the things concerning the kingdom of God [Acts 28?]. Jesus would enter in a place & "teach" & "preach" to the people. I could go on & on w/ this, but am pressed for time. Just because there are different def., doesn't mean they are not synonymous. For ex., there are diff. def. for "God" & "Father" also, yet it's blatantly clear that the terms are used interchangeably. Same w/ "to teach" & "to preach".

"N-O-T with...BRAIDED HAIR....". Think I'll believe the Bible over Prax!