Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

For the reader who may just now be trying to read through this discussion:

Scriptural stance on salvation: Repentance/baptism are what is necessary for salvation, and THEN the Lord can gift with the full outpouring of His spirit... not for salvation but for POWER, spoken out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Below is listed a numerous amount of scriptures that define salvation, eternal life, the gift of God, eternal kingdom, power to become sons of God.... all of them mention salvation in accordance with believing on the name of the Lord to be salvation.

Just to go down on record here what the scriptures clearly state plain and clearly.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could
not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

And where is scripture and verse that you are not saved without the gift?

John 3 - must be born of the water and the spirit or you cannot see/enter the kingdom of God. What are you not understanding about this?

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I am not the one ignoring the words of Jesus in John 3. You are ignoring Jesus words in Mark 16:16 where salvation is specifically mentioned. It is because with your reasoning, the two are not compatible. I absolutely believe John 3, because the spirit of the Lord has to be present for salvation to take place. I have no problem with any of the scriptures. It is your reasoning that has to disregard Mark 16:16 because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Well, you are ignoring it and you evidently don't believe it, else you would understand it. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." It's not talking about the spirit just being present. Back to the analogy you ignored previously: I can have a cup next to a pitcher of iced tea and leave it there all day long. It's in the presence of iced tea. The iced tea is there. But the cup will remain empty until eternity if it is not filled. You claim that the presence is all which is needed, but that isn't so.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You must be born of the spirit. It must fill you, not just surround you.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

You admit that you chose a wrong word "commandment" and I applaud you for that, yet you still cannot accept Mark 16:16 as a scripture defining salvation, even though that premise is backed up time and time and time again in scripture. It is all because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

It's not about what I want it to say or not, I just personally don't believe Jesus meant it as THE defining plan of salvation. Belief and baptism are part, not the whole. You must be born again. Those alone would produce stillborn, lifeless and dead. Only by the infilling of the spirit will one be made alive.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

However, with tongues being the evidence of salvation, you have not ONE scripture specifically stating such. Lots of fancy foot work goes on to justify that fallacy. You can't even produce that scripture, because it is just not there. Of course, more fancy foot work on your part to somehow justify the fact that it can't be found.

How many times must we post that tongues simply is the evidence of receiving the HG. And there are examples in Acts of people who spoke in tongues when they received the HG. Tongues does not save us. Repentance, baptism in the Name of Jesus and the infilling of the HG are what saves us. Tongues are simply the initial evidence. You have yet to show that anything other than tongues was seen as the evidence of a person receiving the HG.

At this point, I don't believe there's anything else for me to add.

You believe salvation needs only belief and baptism; I believe it also requires following Jesus' words that you must be born of the water and spirit.

You believe a person only needs the presence, I believe they need the infilling.

You don't believe tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the HG, I do.

It's been a good discussion, thank you.

[Esaias]

He that believeth and is baptized is saved!

Oh, wait... wut?

[JamesGlen]

Quote from N David-"You believe a person only needs the presence, I believe they need the infilling. "

This is the cruxt for me...

I believe that the Spirit of our Lord is present when drawing folks to Him, away from this wicked world. His conviction tugs on our heart, to "get right" with Him.
But to claim that because one feels convicted to draw closer to God, means His Spirit is already dwelling in you, seems to step outside of what I read in scripture. (Maybe I've just been to pentecostingly brain washed...maybe)

Forgive me KBTW if I misunderstood or misrepresented your stance just now, it's not on purpose, (but I believe I have it accurate). I just can't get assuming just because a person is drawn toward God, His Spirit dwells in them. (Even if only "a measure").

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

And where is scripture and verse that you are not saved without the gift?



Salvation is a gift. The HG infilling is a gift. How then could one refuse that gift, if you are seeking salvation, and believing?

From the mouth of Jesus himself, the HG infilling is power that is given, as a gifting and further empowerment after salvation which consists of repentance/baptism.

Okay, let's just lay it all out on the table so there's no more confusion. Let's say someone repents of their sins and is baptized, but dies before receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (ignoring the tongues issue for now). Do you believe they are saved?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

John 3 - must be born of the water and the spirit or you cannot see/enter the kingdom of God. What are you not understanding about this?

I've explained it, and explained it, and explained it, as well as backed it up with other scriptures which agree... but you just don't agree with it, lol.

Let's try another scripture also in John 3... how does this scripture fit into your understanding?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Well, you are ignoring it and you evidently don't believe it, else you would understand it. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." It's not talking about the spirit just being present. Back to the analogy you ignored previously: I can have a cup next to a pitcher of iced tea and leave it there all day long. It's in the presence of iced tea. The iced tea is there. But the cup will remain empty until eternity if it is not filled. You claim that the presence is all which is needed, but that isn't so.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You must be born of the spirit. It must fill you, not just surround you.

Your empty cup and tea pitcher illustration falls short, because you are saying that the spirit of the Lord is not present at all throughout repentance/baptism, and does not come until the full pouring out of the spirit.

A better illustration would be of a cup half full, but not completely full. At repentance/baptism, the cup is partly full as the spirit of the Lord is upon that life, drawing them, moving upon them and stirring them to conviction, but upon salvation then the Lord is able to completely fill the cup with His spirit, empowering, filling, pouring out etc.

The scriptural fact (as referenced above with all the scriptures I posted) remains that to believe, repent, and be baptized are the exact ordinances both Jesus and the disciples used to preach the gospel. The full gifting of the spirit was to come after salvation.

What you "believe" should line up with scripture. What does the weight of scriptures say?

Originally Posted by n david

It's not about what I want it to say or not, I just personally don't believe Jesus meant it as THE defining plan of salvation. Belief and baptism are part, not the whole. You must be born again. Those alone would produce stillborn, lifeless and dead. Only by the infilling of the spirit will one be made alive.

How many times must we post that tongues simply is the evidence of receiving the HG. And there are examples in Acts of people who spoke in tongues when they received the HG. Tongues does not save us. Repentance, baptism in the Name of Jesus and the infilling of the HG are what saves us. Tongues are simply the initial evidence. You have yet to show that anything other than tongues was seen as the evidence of a person receiving the HG.

At this point, I don't believe there's anything else for me to add.

You believe salvation needs only belief and baptism; I believe it also requires following Jesus' words that you must be born of the water and spirit.

You believe a person only needs the presence, I believe they need the infilling.

You don't believe tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the HG, I do.

It's been a good discussion, thank you.

Yes, it has been a good discussion. The weight of scripture still stands, regardless of what you choose to believe, or I, even.

I cannot and will not argue with the scriptures.

However I'm willing to agree to disagree

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Quote from N David-"You believe a person only needs the presence, I believe they need the infilling. "

This is the cruxt for me...

I believe that the Spirit of our Lord is present when drawing folks to Him, away from this wicked world. His conviction tugs on our heart, to "get right" with Him.
But to claim that because one feels convicted to draw closer to God, means His Spirit is already dwelling in you, seems to step outside of what I read in scripture. (Maybe I've just been to pentecostingly brain washed...maybe)

Forgive me KBTW if I misunderstood or misrepresented your stance just now, it's not on purpose, (but I believe I have it accurate). I just can't get assuming just because a person is drawn toward God, His Spirit dwells in them. (Even if only "a measure").

I understand what you are saying. I really do. I believed it for a good part of my life. But I always had to kind of skip around the lengthy list of scriptures I posted above. They never worked at all with the idea that salvation doesn't happen until the spirit is poured out.

How do you reconcile the above list of scriptures with what you believe?

Let's start with this one:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He that believeth and is baptized is saved!

Oh, wait... wut?

Yes.