Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not "assert". I specifically listed them one by one and even got started on chapter and verse. Remember the joking about your "assignment"? I listed them until I simply got tired of typing them in.

You asserted many things, then you turn around and deny it.

You have never denied that the Gospel of Barnabas outlining the story of Jesus (you know, Barnabas - he is mentioned <favorably> in Acts) was removed Prax.

You've never proven it was "removed". You make a lot of assertions but no substance to your assertions.

You also never denied that the penalty of posession of these writings was, at the time, death.

You've never proven the penalty for possession was death and, honestly I don't give a hoot that it was. What does that have to do with me?

I am (for some unknown reason lol) under the impression that it was removed.

Prove it was removed. Prove it is supposed to be there. Prove it is a valid book to begin with. Again lot's of assertions but no substance to them

Feel free to point me to the correct path at any time. After you do, I then have some questions about some other texts. These questions can wait in the wings.

You have more than questions, you are making assertions then not backing them up

I am taking the time to review these "contradictions". I did not have the luxury of "the first (2) years of Bible college" to 'clear up' possible contradictions.

All you need is a brain and some time alone with God in prayer, you don't need bible college. Maybe you spent some years in Quran college so you can clear up the contradictions in the Quran?

[Walks_in_islam]

I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

1. David was incited to count the fighting men of Isreal. In 2nd Samuel, God incited him. In I Chronicles, Satan incited him. When they were counted, 2nd Samual says 800,000 and I Chronicles says 1.1 MM.
2. God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles.
3. Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles.
4. Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles
5. David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles
6. David carried the Ark into Jerusalem AFTER defeating the Philistines in 2nd Samuel. Before defeating them in Chronicles 13/14
7. David captured 1700 horsemen after defeating the King of Zobah in 2nd Samuel, 7000 in I Chronicles.
8. Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses in I Kings. 4000 stalls in 2nd Chronicles.
9. During King Asa's reign Baasha King of Isreal died in the 26th year in I Kings. He was still alive in the 36th year in I chronicles.
10. Solomon appointed 3600 overseers to build the temple in 2nd chronicles. 3300 in I Kings.
11. Solomon built a facility containing 2000 baths in I kings. It had 3000 in 2nd chronicles.
Isrealites freed from Babylonian captivity:
Children of Pahrath-Moab:
2812 Ezra. 2818 Nehemiah
Children of Azgad:
1222 Ezra. 2333 Nehemiah
And so on. The total numbers agree in each book as 42,360, but if you add each individual column from each book Ezra adds to 29,818 and Nehemiah adds to 31,089
There were 200 singers in the assembly in Ezra and 245 in the assembly in Nehemiah.
King Abijah's mother's name was Michaiah, daughter of Uriel in one chapter of 2nd chronicles and Maachah daughter of Absalom in another chapter. Absalom however had only one daughter mentioned whose name was Tamar in 2nd Samuel.
Joshua and the Isrealites captured Jerusalem in Joshua 10 and did not capture it in Joshua 15.
Father of Joseph, husband of Mary was Jacob in Matthew and Heli in Luke
Jesus descended from Solomon in Matthew and from Nathan in Luke
The father of Shealtiel was Jechoniah in Matthew and Neri in Luke
Abiud son of Zerubbabel was the anscestor of Jesus in Matthew and Rhesa son of Zerubbabel in Luke. Neither are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel in the list in I Chronicles.
Father of Uzziah was Joram in Matthew and Amaziah in 2nd Chronicles
Father of Jechoniah was Josiah in Matthew and Jeholakim in I Chronicles
The angel stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David in Luke. But Matthew says he is a descendent of Jehoiakim and I Chronicles says "and Jehoiaikim was cursed by god so that none of his descendents can sit upon David's throne" Oops.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark and Luke and a colt/donkey in Matthew
Simon Peter found out that Jesus was Christ from a heavenly revelation in Matthew, but his brother Andrew told him in John.
Jesus met Simon and Andrew by the Sea of Galilee in Matthew and on the banks of the Jordan in John
Jairus' daughter was dead when he met Jesus in Matthew but not dead / at the point of death in Mark
The disciples were allowed to keep a staff on their journeys in Mark. They were not allowed in Matthew and Luke
Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist in Matthew and Mark. He did not in Luke.
John the Baptist recognized Jesus in John. He did not recognize him in Matthew.
Jesus cleansed the temple the day he entered Jerusalem in Matthew. He spent the night in Bethany and cleansed it the next day in Mark
Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew. He did not in John
The curtain in the temple was rent after Jesus died in Matthew and Mark. Before Jesus died in Luke.
Both thieves mocked Jesus in Mark. One mocked, one defended in Luke
Jesus ascended to paradise on the day of crucifixion in Luke. He said to Mary he has not yet ascended (two days later) in John
The apostle Paul and companions on the road to Damascus:
All heard the voice in Acts 9. Not all heard the voice in Acts 22
The companions fell to the ground in Acts 26. They did not in Acts 9
The voice spelled out Paul's duties in Acts 26. The voice told him to go to Damascus in Acts 9. [/B]

You on the other hand have openly stated NO contradictions. You and I can point to links all day. You have examples. Assert them (laughing)

If the Apostle of Barnabas was not removed, just say so. Writings that I have read indicate that it was. Show some backbone, stand up, and say "no, that is not true". You can even elaborate and follow up with details of what the Council DID do. My years of college were spent learning to be a productive part of society aka do work. In addition to the two years of "Explaining Scriptural Discrepencies: I also missed:

Logic 101: How to convince sheep that "cover your head or shear it" ACTUALLY means "have hair on your head".
Art 101: "Application of even shiny coats of hair spray for your congregation"
Economics 101, also known as Optimization: "Minimizing the Number of Poor or Brown people in Church: The Business Model of Today". Offered with a lab on "Spending more time raising money for teaching the gospel than actually teaching the gospel"
Let's not forget the Bible College Classes on Christian Intellectual Property: "If a Brown Person Thought of It, It Becomes Christian European Property"
Debate 101: "How to Challenge Your Opponent for Hours Without Saying Anything Specific" (NOTE - You are awarded an A+)

[Walks_in_islam]

You deny or still "assert" (laughing) that a group of old men did NOT decide (long after Jesus was taken back to Heaven) what was and was not to be part of the Bible?

Since you asked, and I feel charitable, and you either do not or pretend not to know, I will, like I listed your requested discrepencies, list them for you:

(from the notes but hey no proof that the actual notes are real. maybe some sneaky muslims slipped this into the canonical law hundreds of years before islam?)

Further Enumeration of Apocryphal Books:

In the first place we confess that the Synod at Ariminum which was convened by the emperor Constantius, the son of Constantine, through the prefect Taurus is damned from then and now and forever.

Itinerary (book of travels) under the name of the apostle Peter,
which is called The Nine Books of the holy Clement apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Andrew apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Thomas apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Peter apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Philip apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Matthias apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Barnabas apocryphal
Gospel under the name of James the younger apocryphal
Gospel under the name of the apostle Peter apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Thomas, which the Manicheans use apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Bartholomaeus apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Andrew apocryphal
Gospel which Lucian has forged apocryphal
Gospel which Hesychius has forged apocryphal
Book about the childhood of the Redeemer apocryphal
Book about the birth of the Redeemer and about Mary or the midwife apocryphal
Book which is called by the name of the Shepherd apocryphal
All books which Leucius, the disciple of the devil, has made apocryphal
Book which is called The Foundation apocryphal
Book which is called The Treasure apocryphal
Book about the daughters of Adam: Leptogenesis(?) apocryphal
Cento about Christ, put together in Virgilian lines apocryphal
Book which is called the Acts of Thecla and of Paul apocryphal
Book which is ascribed to Nepos apocryphal
Book of the Sayings, compiled by heretics and denoted by the name of Sixtus apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Paul apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Thomas apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Stephen apocryphal
Book which is called the Home-going of the Holy Mary apocryphal
Book which is called the Penitence of Adam apocryphal
Book about the giant Ogias,
of whom the heretics assert that after the flood he fought with the dragon apocryphal
Book which is called The Testament of Job apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of Origen apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of the Holy Cyprian apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of Jamnes and Mambres apocryphal
Book which is called The Portion of the Apostles apocryphal
Book which is called The Grave-plate(?) of the Apostles apocryphal
Book which is called the Canones of the Apostles apocryphal
The book Physiologus, compiled by heretics and called by the name of the blessed Ambrose apocryphal
The History of Eusebius Pamphili apocryphal
Works of Tertullian apocryphal
Works of Lactantius (later addition: or of Firmianus or of the African) apocryphal
Works of Postumianus and of Gallus apocryphal
Works of Montanus, of Priscilla and of Maximilla apocryphal
Works of Faustus the Manichean apocryphal
Works of Commodianus apocryphal
Works of the other Clement of Alexandria apocryphal
Works of Thascius Cyprian apocryphal
Works of Arnobius apocryphal
Works of Tichonius apocryphal
Works of Cassian, a presbyter in Gaul apocryphal
Works of Victorinus of Pettau apocryphal
Works of Faustus of Riez in Gaul apocryphal
Works of Frumentius Caecus apocryphal
Epistle of Jesus to Abgar apocryphal
Epistle of Abgar to Jesus apocryphal
Passion (Martyr Acts) of Cyricus and of Iulitta apocryphal
Passion of Georgius apocryphal
Writing which is called Interdiction (Exorcism?) of Solomon apocryphal
All amulets which have been compiled not, as those persons feign,
in the name of the angels, but rather in that of the demons apocryphal

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Ya reckon?

Enjoy your fun!

[Walks_in_islam]

Alas 1% fun, 99% senseless bickering. ----------> ()

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

Enjoy your fun!

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Alas 1% fun, 99% senseless bickering. ----------> ()

agreed!

[shawndell]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

agreed!

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I am limiting my comments ONLY to texts (gospels) that were at one time included in the original Bible.

There is no "original Bible." I'll say it again. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, 39 of which are in the Old Testament (there's a little "college trick" to remembering this The word OLD has 3 letters, the word TESTAMENT has 9 letters=3 (first number) AND 9 (second number) is 39). You can't do this with the words NEW TESTAMENT. It's the same number. But if you know that the Bible has 66 books, you can figure it out yourself. 66-39=27 (books in the New Testament).
The Bible was fought over and discussed for centuries. It was not thrown together haphazardly like the Book of Mormon or the Quran. If the Quran had undergone as much scrutiny as the Bible before being "published," it probably wouldn't have been "released" until after 1,000 A.D.
Note to WiI: If the Bible was released as the Quran was (written by one author), we would only have one book (and not 66) from which to validate our beliefs. take out 65 of them, and that's how The Bible compares to the Quran as far as testimonies, prophecies, history, Psalms. Proverbs and more. In other words, your prophet does a lousy job of writing about his god. Much of it is borrowed from what he heard from Christian missionaries. Funny how the angel Gabriel (from the Gospel accounts) winds up revealing The Quran to Muhammed. He was a plagariarist. Or do all the angels of heaven have the name Gabriel like the Muslims of today have the name Muhammed for their children? If your version of heaven is real, is everyone in it named Muhammed and Gabriel? Couldn't Muhammed been a little more original, perhaps like the Mormon angel: Moroni, who revealed The Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith in 1820, and chose a different name?
With that said, the Bible is a series of books, written over a period of 2,000 years, all validating the same thing. That God (the God of Israel) spoke to various prophets, kings and common men revealing certain things about Himself and His plan for mankind. It was not written by just one man (even Moses had an "editor"). If the Jewish scribes made any errors in making copies, it was immediately burned. There are probably dozens of sites to point this out.
I dismiss many of your questions, such as the difference in the apostles 12 names because they appear to be "red herrings" or silly little "rabbit trails" that go no where, and do not appear to be your greatest concern. There are far bigger questions that you could play "stump the Christian" with, such as where did Cain and Abel get their wives?
Hey, at least Jesus had 12 apostles to validate his ministry. Muhammed had none. Plus, since Jesus had 12 apostles, we can choose from more than one name for our sons (since Mathais replaced Judas, we can use that one). 13 if you count Jesus, or as the Spanish pronounce it: "hey suess." Like the guy who wrote "Green Eggs and Ham." Ooooooops. I said ham on an Islamic chat line. So we don't just have Muhammed from which to choose as a name for our sons.

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You deny or still "assert" (laughing) that a group of old men did NOT decide (long after Jesus was taken back to Heaven) what was and was not to be part of the Bible?

Since you asked, and I feel charitable, and you either do not or pretend not to know, I will, like I listed your requested discrepencies, list them for you:

(from the notes but hey no proof that the actual notes are real. maybe some sneaky muslims slipped this into the canonical law hundreds of years before islam?)

Your list is long, and I only get so much time on the computer before the system boots me out (unless there are computers available, then I get an extension of time). So, I'll deal with one of the books:The biggest reason "The Gospel of Thomas" was thrown out can be found in the very last verse, in which 'Jesus' says He will change women into men because women aren't allowed in heaven. If you have a chance to read it (it can be viewed on the internet if you wish), The Gospel of Thomas is also just a series of alleged sayings which claim to have originated from the lips of Jesus. There is no historical context as to when it was said (Jesus' childhood? After the Resurrection? During his crucifixion? The 3 years of ministry?). There are also no duplicate accounts in other "Gospels" (fake or real) as to these sayings. There is no account of who was there as Jesus said this (was it public or private?). There is no account as to what provoked these statements, or who asked it. Scripture also says that we must have two witnesses in any legal dispute. Since this Gospel (of Thomas) is essentially a "legal document," (claiming to be valid), there is no other "witness" as to its validity.
Understand?
If you were back in the U.S., you could go to your average Barnes & Noble and find scores of books refuting these Apocraphal books. However, since your in a society which does not allow for this, I suggest you do research on this when you come back. In many ways, perhaps you should act like a Jewish scholar, and question, question, question. The Bible allows for this. The Quran does not, and if you do, you will be shot for blasphemy. Am I wrong?

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Here is your answer - I have never seen a bathroom in a Muslim country that does not have toilet paper. I have only personally visited (4) of them (Muslim countries, not bathrooms - qualified for the easily distracted). Maybe you have a vast well of personal experience to draw on that I do not have. My understanding of the basis behind your question is that culturally they wash their backsides after doing their business. Possible reasons could be that they have no problem with bathing or washing (like the truck-driving, "raghead"-screeching rednecks seem to have) or perhaps they feel cleaner after washing. I do not know. Please do not be stunned, but unlike you I have had neither time nor inclination to study in detail the personal actions of my fellows after doing their personal business. Probably my level of interest on these things in your view should be higher. We will unfortunately have a difference of opinion on this and I do not believe we will ever see eye-to-eye on priorities like these. I do not guide my life nor make decisions based on what someone else does in his or her bathroom. Thank you for the question.

I will now advise that you engage in some personal research. Try not to get beat up or arrested while doing so. Good luck. (I expect no sympathy for you even from a random jury of good ole boys). Additional advice - fully conclude your research before you start serving your sentence. Explanation, I am sure, is not needed.

OH. The apostles have aliases. Thank you for clarifying that. Your reference to Arab names is amusing but missed me entirely. Neither I nor my wife are Arab. Thanks for the laugh.

I was not speaking about public bathrooms. I merely wished to ask why they have such an aversion to toilet paper, and consider it disgusting. I do not understand the desire to essentially stick a garden hose up there and pretty much do a colonoscopy. Is there an aversion to showers? I know back here, we find Muslims trying to take baths in the sinks, 4 feet above the floor, attempting to wash their feet, while a number of people outside the door of the restroom are pretty close to defecating outside the bathroom (in their clothes) while Muhammed washes his feet. Hasn't he ever heard of "Baby Wipes?"
It's like the Muslims over here who apply and get jobs at the Hormel meat packing plant, which has pork products, and then cry about having to handle pork, and ask for special changes in handling the pork. Then why did you get a job at a pork processing plant? It's not the only job in the city.
But alas, I guess I'm just a silly little redneck for asking such common sense questions.
Aliases? A nickname is not an alias. I'm sure you have nicknames for your children or wife (if you're married). Even Jesus addressed God as "Father," but also "Abba," which essentially means "Daddy."
Which leads me to ask, does Allah only have one name? I'm not talking about the 99 other names that are essentially nothing more than a bunch of "Hail Mary's" that a good Muslim must recite.
If he does, what's the big deal about Peter having 2 other names?