This Place Is The Only Source Of...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

In a nostalgic moment yesterday afternoon, I sang the lyrics to a song that meant so much to me that is appropriate to the turn our conversation has taken.

"The Mighty God is Jesus,
the Prince of Peace is He.
The Everlasting Father,
The King Eternally.
The Wonderful in wisdom,
By whom all thnigs were made.
The fullness of the Godhead
in Jesus is displayed."

"I't's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The fulness of the Godhead,
is all in Him.
It's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The Mighty God is Jesus and it's all in Him."


My favorite verse...

"The Alpha and Omega,
Beginning and the End.
The Living Word Incarnate,
the helpless sinner's friend.
Our wisdom and perfection,
Our righteousness and power.
Yes all we need in Jesus,
we find this very hour."



I used to sing this song with such gusto, such a surety. I had not thought of the song in years and it came back to me yesterday.

Wow.

It is a beautiful song. However, songs are often "bad theology". Jesus speaks of a personal pre-existence with the Father. The Bible is firm... the Father and the Son are "one" in that they have a mutual indwelling. This is described well by Jesus....

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

Notice, Jesus doesn't say that He "is" the Father. Christ describes a mutual indwelling, a unity of being. Christ says, "the Father is in me, and I in him." Notice the personal distinction of person drawn by Christ in regards to Himself and the Father. This is the biblical relationship between the Father and the Son.

[Sam]

How many of God's Spirits are dwelling in us?
Christ is in us. The Spirit of Christ is in us. We say that Jesus is in our heart. We are the temple or dwelling place of God. God says He will dwell in us and be a father. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of God dwells in us. How many Spirits is that and how many divine persons is that?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever more... what Jesus was, He is. Jesus had always been the Son of God. It was just manifest to US that He was the Son of God in His incarnation.

LOL Jesus was not a man yesterday, today, and forever. Or do you believe he was?

Jesus being the same yesterday, today, and forever does not speak of his mode of being.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Prophetically Christ is acknowledged as the Son. Since Christ is divine in nature, Christ never changes. He wasn't the Word and then "became" the Son. What defines Christ as "Son" isn't His fleshly incarnation, it's the fact that He is the eternal express image of the Father's own person. The term Logos was a literary divice used by John to define Christ as the very image of God to Hellenist Jews and Greeks (John's audience).

The Term Logos is how John describes the preexistent Christ in heaven.

There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the WOrd, and the HOly Ghost, and these three are one.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many of God's Spirits are dwelling in us?
Christ is in us. The Spirit of Christ is in us. We say that Jesus is in our heart. We are the temple or dwelling place of God. God says He will dwell in us and be a father. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of God dwells in us. How many Spirits is that and how many divine persons is that?

Jesus drew distinction between Himself, the Father, and the Holy Ghost in John 14:26,

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we have three distinct "persons". Now, since they share being, all that one is the other is also. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ and the agent of the Father in Christ's incarnation.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus drew distinction between Himself, the Father, and the Holy Ghost in John 14:26,

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we have three distinct "persons". Now, since they share being, all that one is the other is also. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ and the agent of the Father in Christ's incarnation.

Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.

How does he do this when someone else is the comforter?

He also said for the Father to make the church one even as him and the Father are one. How are they one? THese questions alone will form the framework to great revelation concerning WHO the Holy Ghost is.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

So the men who got healed at the gate beautiful, didn't think he might have ran while he was walking and leaping and praising God? I ask you to prove that all Jewish worship choreographed? Have you ever seen dancing in the Jewish culture? Some of it is spontaneous. Screaming? I'm not sure how long they were on the day of Pentecost but it was loud enough to be noised abroad and they were on the second floor...pew jumping? They didn't have pews to jump.

Worship is often found in emotion. Everyone shows that emotion differently. Since the Bible doesn't say you can't do these things, it would be adding to the scripture to say you could not or would not.



I see you must think that people cannot pray and worship to God in a public setting. Paul is talking about people coming to speak to the crowd. He says if you do not have an interpreter pray to yourself and God and keep silent in the church. Now do you believe Paul meant we could not speak any words in public church? We don't find that in the book of acts at least. When they got together, it was different. Paul was correcting a travesty in the corinthian church, not telling someone that they can't speak in church to God privately.

I was scared to death coming to a Pentecostal church. Most people are, but people come back. I doubt folks being exuberant in worship causes souls to be lost. They might just find a calmer church to go to. That doesn't mean every church has to be calm in worship, because many like to be exuberant. There has to be a church for everyone.

Some like red carpet, Some like soft music, others like blue carpet and loud music.

So if every church tried to please everyone seeking God, where would those who worship exuberantly when they feel the Spirit go?

Tons of people have testified that they said they would never go back to a Pentecostal church after the first time, but they came back and joined them later.

I'll try to address your issues briefly.

First of all, I never said all apostolic worship cannot be found in scripture, just some of the manifestations I mentioned.

Secondly, I do believe noise takes place in a worship service. Exuberant singing, praising, clapping, loud music, and dancing can be found in scripture. My only point concerning the dancing is that what is often seen in our services as "dancing" is not what is found in the Word. I doubt very seriously we can find scriptural record for Jews jerking and bucking all over the front of the synagogue, bumping into people and knocking over the flowers before falling unceremoniously under the front pew with their dress hiked up above the mid-thigh, a scene all too often played out in modern day "pentecost". Also, I never said all dancing in scripture was choreographed. I said that most was, which is a fact. Apostolics would label any choreographed dancing as "charismatic" or excessively worldly.

Thirdly, the war hoop or wailing kind of "screaming" is not edifying, and not surprisingly absent from scriptural worship as far as I can tell.

Forthly, concerning the Corinthian church, I don't have time to address all your concerns. I'll just say that I have never heard anyone in Pentecost interpret the scripture as you have here. Never does the text indicate that it is only the main person addressing the crowd that must abide by the guidelines given by Paul. To make things clear, I don't have any problem with tongues during a public worship service, as long as it is done in an orderly fashion during times of prayer or exuberant worship. What we often see in Pentecost that might have disturbed Paul also, is the loud and ostentatious tongue talker that drowns out whatever else is going on. It is not in concert with the service, but a "solo" if you will. Since tongues without interpretation is meant to only edify the speaker, people should not yell or scream at the top of their voice in tongues. The only purpose that serves is to attract attention to themselves and away from what God is doing for the body as a whole. That is not edifying to the church.

Lastly, we worship to please God, not others. However, God is only pleased when his kingdom is advanced. We must be careful to follow the doctrines of scripture in worship as we do in all other things. I find it strangely amazing that apostolics, who claim to follow the apostles doctrine explicitly, get so riled up when anyone points out the discrepancies that may exist between real "old time Pentecost" worship and modern "old time Pentecost" worship.

I don't claim to know all the answers in this area, but I approach the worship of my Lord with awe and devotion. I don't think it is too much to expect that my worship be pleasing to him first and foremost. Scripture is a pretty good guide.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.

How does he do this when someone else is the comforter?

He also said for the Father to make the church one even as him and the Father are one. How are they one? THese questions alone will form the framework to great revelation concerning WHO the Holy Ghost is.

I look at it this way....

Jesus does say,

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet, Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father and the Holy Ghost in regards to person....

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we are forced by the Scriptures to acknowledge two things. First, distinction of person ("I" vs. "he") with regards to the Holy Ghost (distinct "persons"). Second, unity of being, "I will come to you." Clearly just as Jesus and the Father are one with an essential coinherence, so too is Christ and the Holy Ghost one with an essential coinherence. Therefore wherever the Spirit is, Christ is also. If all three exist with a coinherence of person, where one is, the others are also. So in receiving the Holy Ghost... one can expect both the Father and Son to be present also. Notice what Jesus says,

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Notice that Jesus says "we will come", and "make our abode". How? Via the Holy Spirit. So when the Holy Spirit comes, so to does Christ and His Father.

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

This is why the Holy Ghost can be both "another comforter" and a distinct "he" in relation to Jesus Christ... yet also be the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God (the Father), and when He (the Holy Spirit) comes... both the Father and Son are present.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:16 - Distinction of persons. Jesus (one person) prays to the Father (a second person) that He might send the Holy Ghost, "another comforter" identitified as a distinct "he" (a third person).
John 14:18 - Unity of being (with coinherence) with the Spirit, thus when the Spirit comes Jesus can say, "I will come unto you."
John 14:23 - Unity of being (with coinherence) between all three. "...we shall make our abode..."

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I look at it this way....

Jesus does say,

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet, Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father and the Holy Ghost in regards to person....

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I'll make it easier.. the HG is the SPirit of the Father and of the Son. When you receive the HG you get BOTH the Father and the Son.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Hard to believe it has been this long!

"Oh! Say, but I'm glad."