Just so I can get a better idea of where you are coming from, would you say that in general those baptized with the words in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost understand that their salvation is by the authority of Jesus? Or would you say that those baptized that way ought to be rebaptized with the words in Jesus name?
In general, I would say no, most do not understand. Sad thing is, they should. For the most part it is safe to say that those being baptised are usually new converts that have little understanding of whats going on. One of our failures I believe is baptism without instruction. There is a person in a church who commonly takes new members aside and with a 10 min talk has them ready and eager to be baptized, yet its obvious they have little understanding of what it really is and why its to be done, much less an understanding of by what name of who they are being cleansed. I believe we should be instructing new converts about baptism and by what name and authority they are being cleansed. I believe if one fully understands this, then I dont believe it would be an issue what was said over them. Ultimately the power behind the authority of the Jesus Christ at baptism is in that persons belief and faith in Jesus Christ as their savior, not what is said.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
In general, I would say no, most do not understand. Sad thing is, they should. For the most part it is safe to say that those being baptised are usually new converts that have little understanding of whats going on. One of our failures I believe is baptism without instruction. There is a person in a church who commonly takes new members aside and with a 10 min talk has them ready and eager to be baptized, yet its obvious they have little understanding of what it really is and why its to be done, much less an understanding of by what name of who they are being cleansed. I believe we should be instructing new converts about baptism and by what name and authority they are being cleansed. I believe if one fully understands this, then I dont believe it would be an issue what was said over them. Ultimately the power behind the authority of the Jesus Christ at baptism is in that persons belief and faith in Jesus Christ as their savior, not what is said.
In general, I would say no, most do not understand. Sad thing is, they should. For the most part it is safe to say that those being baptised are usually new converts that have little understanding of whats going on. One of our failures I believe is baptism without instruction. There is a person in a church who commonly takes new members aside and with a 10 min talk has them ready and eager to be baptized, yet its obvious they have little understanding of what it really is and why its to be done, much less an understanding of by what name of who they are being cleansed. I believe we should be instructing new converts about baptism and by what name and authority they are being cleansed. I believe if one fully understands this, then I dont believe it would be an issue what was said over them. Ultimately the power behind the authority of the Jesus Christ at baptism is in that persons belief and faith in Jesus Christ as their savior, not what is said.
So are you advocating the rebaptism of those individuals or not? And what about the ones who don't understand but were baptized in Jesus name?
So are you advocating the rebaptism of those individuals or not? And what about the ones who don't understand but were baptized in Jesus name?
These are questions I have never really studied hard on (always been other questions that ranked higher to me) but would love to discuss or hear thoughts and opinions on. I for one was baptized in a baptist church at youth under the titles. Once I converted during my teenage years to Apostolic I started learning of Jesus name baptism. After talking with my youth leader then my pastor I was asked if I believe Jesus washed my sins away when I was baptized, I responded yes and nothing else was said. (believe it or not, this was UPC church) 7 months later I recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not long after I had an "urge" to be baptised again, again, no one ever brought it up. I approached my pastor and he said if I felt thats what I needed to do he would be happy to, so I was baptised in Jesus name.
I dont believe had I died prior to Jesus name baptism I would have been lost, but I do believe had I not obeyed the will of the Holy Spirit to be baptised in Jesus name I would have been lost.
Your question is a good one, I would add some to that just to clarify or even deepen the conversation. If one is baptised (titles or otherwise) but has no understanding of why or what it is, are they washed ? If salvation is truly by believing and obedience then they are just getting wet, right ? What if as you say they are baptized under the titles without an understanding of the authority of Jesus name but come to that understanding later ? Is the prior baptism then reconciled later when understanding is gained ?
I'm not sure, nor am I at a point to even have an opinion.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
These are questions I have never really studied hard on (always been other questions that ranked higher to me) but would love to discuss or hear thoughts and opinions on. I for one was baptized in a baptist church at youth under the titles. Once I converted during my teenage years to Apostolic I started learning of Jesus name baptism. After talking with my youth leader then my pastor I was asked if I believe Jesus washed my sins away when I was baptized, I responded yes and nothing else was said. (believe it or not, this was UPC church) 7 months later I recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not long after I had an "urge" to be baptised again, again, no one ever brought it up. I approached my pastor and he said if I felt thats what I needed to do he would be happy to, so I was baptised in Jesus name.
I dont believe had I died prior to Jesus name baptism I would have been lost, but I do believe had I not obeyed the will of the Holy Spirit to be baptised in Jesus name I would have been lost.
Your question is a good one, I would add some to that just to clarify or even deepen the conversation. If one is baptised (titles or otherwise) but has no understanding of why or what it is, are they washed ? If salvation is truly by believing and obedience then they are just getting wet, right ? What if as you say they are baptized under the titles without an understanding of the authority of Jesus name but come to that understanding later ? Is the prior baptism then reconciled later when understanding is gained ?
I'm not sure, nor am I at a point to even have an opinion.
Any chance you could maybe tone down the monster blue font? I don't need reading glasses so the normal thing works just fine for me.
Any chance you could maybe tone down the monster blue font? I don't need reading glasses so the normal thing works just fine for me.
Sorry, post with this font, size and color on all my forums, except the ones I am a moderator on, then if its an "admin" post I put it in a bright maroon. Its about as part of my posting identity as the karate Guniea pig in my avatar, soooooo.......... guess the answer is no. You can always put me on ignore, I wouldn't mind.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
Sorry, post with this font, size and color on all my forums, except the ones I am a moderator on, then if its an "admin" post I put it in a bright maroon. Its about as part of my posting identity as the karate Guniea pig in my avatar, soooooo.......... guess the answer is no. You can always put me on ignore, I wouldn't mind.
Oh no, I couldn't put you on ignore. Your writings are much too informative and thoughtful. So the big, blue thing is your "identity"? Very nice. I've seen internet chatter for years about a oneness buy that writes big blue stuff! I feel like I'm talking to a legend!! I'm getting nervous right now just typing this!!
So it sounds like you're on quite a few forums!! How exciting that must be! So far my count is at one, although I posted one thing on Timmy's "ex-pentecostal" forum.
And you've inspired me. From now on, I'm going to post everything just like you, except a little bigger, and with the color....uhhhhhhhh, green, representing my great wealth, starting with this post! That'll be my identity! Isn't this exciting??!!
ps....Admin, any chance you could give us a size option bigger than "7"? I'd like for my postings to even MORE noticeable.
Last edited by TroubleMaker; 02-12-2010 at 05:50 PM.
Why do I get the feeling we have a big fat liberal green treehugging troublemaker on this forum?
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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