Your answer to illegal immigration.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Everything in our government is too beuracratic, ...its basically just aquainting the immigrants with what we here face all the time

As far as the law being unjust. I say it is not unjust. It wouldn't be unjust if we decided to allow NO immigrants. It's unjust that their government doesn't provide them with good oppurtunities. That is where the unjustice lies. Since there are so many illegal immigrants coming here, maybe their homelands should pay us a "tribute" for their poor use of resources that causes their people to try to illegally come here. The point is that it is not injustice on our part if we turn them away. Nor would it be unjust if we deported every single illegal immigrant. The injustice doesn't fall on our country on this issue no matter how many sob story's you know of. So ultimately it is our country's decision to decide whether we show mercy or not, and we are under no moral or ethical obligation to do either. Regardless of whether we show mercy or not, reform needs to happen on the immigration front.

There's a fundamental disagreement between us. You see, you see Freedom as something granted by the government, therefore the government has the right to deny Freedom and liberty in our land to any it chooses. You probably see principles of Liberty that we embraced granted by the Constitution also. This would cause you to believe that non-citizens aren't entitled to the Freedoms protected by the Constitution.

I believe differently. I believe that the Freedom we enjoy in our nation is an inalienable God given human right entitled to ALL regardless of where they come from. Our ancestors fled here seeking the Freedoms we enjoy... many of them stole land from Native Americans and butchered them (I know it's not one sided, atrocities were committed by Native Americans too). However, my ancestry is Dutch, Irish, English, and German. I cannot fathom supporting a bureaucratic monstrosity that would have criminalized my ancestors, and in fact, criminalizes all who seek Freedom who do not have the privilege of following the established process.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Aurelie

People say: I would be happier if they got here legally and then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

But they are ignorant of immigration laws.

The system offers no legal channel for me to become a legal citizen (I know, I've seen countless immigration lawyers), except through marriage, and I don't want to marry unless it's for real with someone I'll love until I die.

BTY I'm white, college educated, speak English, am self-supporting, pay taxes (taxation without representation!), have a real SS card and driver's license (legal tourists can get them, and I got them when I was on my legal tourist Visa), I pay car insurance, I entered the U.S. legally (my parents brought me here when I was a teenager, on a tourist Visa). I attended an American college, and because I was an international student my parents had to pay about $18,000.00 a year in international student tuitions (yes, we contribute to the economy!). I'm middle class, I tithe, I support missionaries, I donate $$ to worthy Christian ministries etc.

I lived my most formative years here, most of my life, and I consider this country my home because I love America, I love Americans (all my friends are American after all). Also I no longer speak the language of my native country well enough to be employable there. But that's beside the point: I want to keep on living here because i love this country and I am contributing to this country positively. I'm not taking anything away. I'm an illegal immigrant who work hard and pay taxes that support American citizens who don't work and are on welfare...

I'm not a drain on the economy. On the contrary I contribute to it with my spending and taxes, yet can't reap all the benefit of a taxpayer because I'm not a legal citizen (yet). I've never used public services I haven't paid for (I'm a taxpayer like you). I'm healthy and never had to go to the hospital. When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I pay the amount in full with my own money.

Yes, I want to correct my status. But as of today, there is no correct process for me to become a legal citizen and the only legal way current immigration laws gives me is through marriage (a real marriage, otherwise that would be fraud). But so far marriage has not happened to me.

Why would it be wrong for the government to change immigration laws to allow someone like me to become a U.S. citizen (without having to get married. I want to get married like most singles do, but haven't found the right person yet)?

I believe the laws that prevent someone with my qualifications to become an American citizen are unjust (taxation without representation, hello?) and need to be changed.

One funny thing: One of my former customers published a newsletter that attacked illegal immigrants (the usual stereotypes: they are uneducated, don't pay taxes, are criminals etc.). He didn't know I was an illegal immigrant. He paid me to print, collate, fold, and mail his newsletter. So he railed against illegal immigrants, yet he was using my services because of my competitive prices. And the reason why my prices were competitive is because I can't get a white collar desk job my college education prepared me for because of my illegal status.
So he was complaining about illegal immigration while enjoying the benefits of it. Typical...

And please don't ask me where I am from. It's irrelevant. What does it matter if I'm Latin, Asian, European, or something else?

Aurelie
PS: I'm not sure if I'll continue posting here. I just thought my real life example could help some of you stop lumping all I.I. together, and help you stop thinking we all neatly fit into the stereotypical mold.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience Aurelie. I do hope that you find that special someone some day. I also hope that most who read your post see that they've been socially conditioned to mis-characterize illegal immigrants. You're story is one I've heard over and over and over from those that I know who are in a similar situation. Our immigration laws need serious reform to help people like you. Of course most here hate you. They'd like to see you shot or deported without mercy, without grace, without a sense of basic human rights, and the entitlement of liberty and justice for all. You see I think that phrase is important... liberty AND justice. When most salivating conservatives say "justice" they think of criminalization and penalty. Justice is also just law that aids in the human cause, that protects and ensures the entitlement of human rights. You're experiencing first hand the injustice of an outdated system that needs serious reform. It's an unjust system of laws. And when laws are unjust, it's our duty to make them just and it should come as no surprise that human beings seeking freedom break unjust laws.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I hope you don't really expect any of us to believe that the only way for you to legally become a citizen is to marry a citizen.

That is poppycock!

Educate us on immigration law Bro. Nitehawk. Tell Aurelie right now what she can do and how easy it is to fix her situation. Stand and deliver son.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I love it when non-citizens tell us it's wrong for us not to let them become citizens. There are many countries in the world that have stricter standards on immigration than the U.S.A. Germany won't even let americans work there unless they are doing a job that german's can't do. Yes even on our army bases over there. The germans are the ones checking I.D. at the gate...

Your philosophy states that you see America no different than let's say Germany or China.

Immigration is up to the country to decide who it lets in and who it doesn't. You don't have a right to live wherever you want to. Neither do I as an American. There are many countries that wouldn't let me become a citizen even if I wanted to. There is nothing wrong with this. Should we allow more people to become legal immigrants. I don't really have a problem with the idea right now. But, this argument about its a person's right to live in the country they want to is getting a little old.

Do you believe that liberty is a God given right or a government granted right?

[Jermyn Davidson]

[QUOTE=Aquila;824385] I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

QUOTE]

In order for the comparison to fail, you have to ignore or add to the Bible.

I am not willing to do that.

Fact: Slavery is in itself repulsive-- whatever the form.
Fact: The slave fled wrongfully from his slave master.
Fact: The slave became a Christian.
Fact: The Apostle Paul facilitated the return of the Christian slave to his rightful slave owner.


The Grace of God was revealed in this situation in one way by the slave returning without fear of retribution for his wrongful actions.

The Grace of God was not revealed in this situation by allowing the slave to remain a fugitive.

He had to return to that unpleasant situation.


If God wanted to work it out a different way, He could have. Doesn't the Bible speak of God hardening Pharoah's heart so that His Glory can be revealed?

If people would stay in their countries and fight and and change things there by faith, through their works, then their situation will improve because God is with them.


Do you have any scripture to justify your stance concerning Paul's response to your "what if" situation?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Your philosophy states that you see America no different than let's say Germany or China.



Do you believe that liberty is a God given right or a government granted right?

Both.

God ordains the governments.

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=Jermyn Davidson;824794]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

QUOTE]

In order for the comparison to fail, you have to ignore or add to the Bible.

I am not willing to do that.

Fact: Slavery is in itself repulsive-- whatever the form.
Fact: The slave fled wrongfully from his slave master.
Fact: The slave became a Christian.
Fact: The Apostle Paul facilitated the return of the Christian slave to his rightful slave owner.

You're ignoring that Philemon was a Christian leader in the church of Colossae. Again, if Onesimus would have fled from a violent master, I doubt Paul would not have sent him back to face brutal beatings and/or death.

The Grace of God was revealed in this situation in one way by the slave returning without fear of retribution for his wrongful actions.

The Grace of God was not revealed in this situation by allowing the slave to remain a fugitive.

True. However, again Philemon was a faithful Christian. If he were a diabolical tyrant returning a slave would be more akin to a man returning to a life of bondage to sin not the grace of God.

Do you have any scripture to justify your stance concerning Paul's response to your "what if" situation?

I can't see Paul gladly accepting the atrocities of a brutal slave master.

In Philemon we see an example of a Christian slave being sent back to a Christian master. Paul offered to pay for what Onesimus took, in addition Paul admonished Philemon to accept Onesimus back as a "brother"... this is regarded by many scholars as an indicator that Paul was subtly advocating for Onesimus' freedom.

The book of Philemon isn't about accepting bondage and atrocity as you presume. It's about admonishing Christians to treat others like themselves, be forgiving of wrong done, and accepting the one who wronged you as a brother. Would we be like Philemon to treat an immigrant seeking freedom harshly? Absolutely not.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Both.

God ordains the governments.

God does not bless their injustices.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if your name was Jose and you lived in a country where you had virtually no education and most of the people you knew who were making a decent living were dealing drugs and pimping women. You're married and you've lost work and are about to deplete what little savings you have left. You can't find a good paying job anywhere at home that will help you make ends meet. What jobs you can do are slave labor that have unreasonable hours and only pay a pittance. Your wife is scared and your kids are scared. You borrowed money to keep your dingy apartment and to buy groceries. Now the loan shark is threatening your family. One night while talking you and your spouse are staring at the ceiling wondering what you can do. Suddenly it comes to you... you have a cousin Rico in America who would let you stay at his house... you could find good paying work and send money home for your family to live on and pay off the loan shark...all you have to do is sneak across the boarder.

Would you say it would be okay for this person to deal drugs to make ends meet until his immigration paperwork goes through? Or to prostitute his wife or pimp women until he gets all his paperwork goes through? This guy's desperate and so is his family. Any man in his right mind would sneak in here.

Yes, you also have a Canadian named Margret who's been waiting patiently for months for her immigration paperwork to go through. She lives in a middle class apartment in Toronto and works with Systran Technologies. She has a sister who got laid off but is drawing unemployment from the Provincial Unemployment program who is also wanting to immigrate to the United States. She's flat out outraged that Jose has the audacity to break immigration law because she's waited so patiently.

Every situation is different and the two often don't compare.

You can go over "what ifs" all day, doesn't matter.

There's a legal process, follow it.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Your philosophy states that you see America no different than let's say Germany or China.



Do you believe that liberty is a God given right or a government granted right?

From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Consider what I have bolded. The rights listed in this declaration are not to say that all people deserve those oppurtunities and if they can't get them in their own countries they have a right to come here. This is about changing your government after it has oppressed those rights to the point that the people cannot bear the oppression any longer.

The rights of a people come from their government. But if the government doesn't give people their natural rights, then in the course of time after many offenses, it becomes the rights of the governed to put away the old government and bring in a new one of whatsoever kind they feel will best keep their natural rights.

There is nothing in the Constitution or our countries founding that declares that all men should have the same oppurtunities we have. It says, God has granted people unalienable rights, but it is their governments duty to ensure those rights. If their government oppresses them then they have the right, or I'll even say the duty to fight and put away the old government and replace it with one that will not oppress those rights.