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Originally Posted by afp1996
Like I said, no mention of the meaning you guys force into the scripture
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This is really getting tiring, AFP. I have rarely seen someone assume another person believes so many beliefs they simply do not believe, as I have seen with you, brother. Us "guys" do not believe what you claim, if you are talking about me. Show me -- quote me -- where I said anything similar to the term RAPTURE means BODIES CHANGING FROM ONE FORM TO ANOTHER.
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The problem is not the meaning in the Bible brother, it's what you say it means.
For you to say that a physical body is changed into a physical body and then is risen into the sky is not the meaning of harpadzo.
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Where did I say anything about HARPADZO meaning a physical body changes into a physical body? Harpadzo simply means to catch up, or seize and pluck up. I said nothing more than that.
When I said the meaning of RAPTURE in the bible is what rapturists claim it means, I was trying to say that the idea of a person seized up is in the word HARPADZO. Where did you get the idea I believe RAPTURE means to change bodies from one state to another? Please stick to what I said and not what I did not say. Brother,, we need to learn what the other means by saying something and not assume we know what someone means and make the error of misrepresenting their beliefs.
We are speaking about the meaning of "RAPTURE". "RAPTURE" simply means to seize or pluck up.
When it comes to the belief that a mortal physical body changing into an immortal physical body, I never got that from the meaning of HARPADZO. Where I get the belief of a physical mortal body changing into a physical immortal body when HARPADZO occurs is
1 Cor 15.
Since
1 Thess 4 says the dead in Christ rise and are followed by the saints who are alive and remain on earth, we find a connection in
1 Cor 15:51-52 when it mentions the same thing. Saying not everyone will physically die, but everyone will be changed is referring to dead and living saints being changed. Just as
1 Thess 4 says the dead will resurrect when HARPADZO occurs,
1 Cor 15 says the dead and living both are to be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 says something
1 Thess 4 never said. It adds the understanding that when the dead and living are raised, a change of body occurs, and involves corruption putting on incorruption, and mortality putting on immortality. Since the entire context is speaking about BODIES in
1 Cor 15, or CONTAINERS (which is what a body is if we read
2 Cor 5:4), then it is a mortal body that is CHANGED to become an immortal BODY.
Who said the term RAPTURE means BODIES CHANGING INTO OTHER SORTS OF BODIES? Not me.
1 Cor 15 simply says the change of bodies happens when harpadzo happens.
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Harpadzo means: to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
In that word there is no mention of a physical body becoming immortal and flying into the sky.
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I never said it did. We get that additional idea from
1 Cor 15 focus on natural physical bodies changing into spiritual physical bodies, which you do not accept since you do not realize spiritual does not mean non-physical.
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In fact the scripture you quoted shows not a flying of the physical body but the disappearance of said body without a change from mortal to immortal and then a reappearing of the same mortal body in another city.
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Agreed! But you again incorrectly assumed, without any evidence from my writings, that I believe "RAPTURE" means a changing of the body from one physical state to another, when in actuality I always maintained it only means to seize. I agree it only means TO SEIZE. And since 1 Cor says that the SEIZING AWAY of
1 Thess 4 of the dead and living occurs
with the associated and additional experience of mortality putting on immortality, while
Acts 8 simply says the seizing takes place without anything to do with mortality putting on immortality, your point of
Acts 8 is moot. I never said RAPTURE means bodies change from mortal ones to immortal ones. I simply believe change of bodies taught in
1 Cor 15 is said to occur when RAPTURE also occurs.
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This same body did not live for ever but indeed died after being "raptured".
Like I said, no mention of the meaning you guys force into the scripture.
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I force nothing into scripture. I force nothing into the meaning of words. But you are forcing your assumptions of what I believe into my beliefs without warrant.
You have done that several times now. Please ensure what you assume is correct before you propose it.
You are confusing the teaching of what people believe
is associated with the event of the rapture and thinking they are saying the term RAPTURE itself means all of that. Why do you do that? Please get your facts straight about what others believe.
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