Apology to World

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not make a mistake. Again, using the umbrella of christianity or using the umbrella of Islam to do bad deeds is equally wrong. Does it make a difference if the pedo does not "shout" while he performs his action? The person who shot the abortion doctor was not doing his "christian duty"? These things keep happening don't they Prax? These people are set up in leadership positions in their respective churches and supported by the members of those churches and this happens while they perform their "christian duty". No they are not spoken up against, not enough. Non-christians have to come in, take these people away, and prosecute them for these actions. These people used their place as christian leaders to perform these deeds. On this "speaking up". Who is left to speak in Afghanistan, in Iran, in Sudan? WE (the US) gave these regimes arms, financing, and power. These regimes are totalitarian in nature. Old saying: Power corrupts. Absolute power absolutely corrupts. There are Muslim countries where these things are not done and not accepted and muslim countries where they are. There are Muslim countries where there is religious tolerance and Muslim countries where there is not. I have seen them both. As an American and a Muslim I prefer the former. As an American and a Muslim I also wish to see a stop to providing military and financial support to the latter. Even if it IS at times politically expedient or means we can get cheap oil or means that the regime can fight our battles for us.

This post started as a discussion of Obama's apology. This post did not start as an "Islam bashing" party. His apology was to muslims hurt by the Taliban, Iran's muslim neighbors who now have guns and potentially nuclear weapons pointed at them, and other places in the world where WE replaced one bad thing with another with no thought to the consequences of our actions.

Again, the news paper quotes you provided are NOT Christians claiming to be doing Christian duty in the name of Jesus. Yes you did make that mistake

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I know it was just not fear of being labelled a racist that brought Obama to office. I am glad you see that light. WASPs just HATE the idea that he might just have been honestly elected lol.

Those victims were innocent Muslims. Their perpetrators were criminals. Your inability to separate the two tells me that you have "Muslims" classified as one group and you have everyone in the group, regardless of who they are, where they live, where they are from, or what they do in one category and everything you see or hear about that category is automatically applied to the group as a whole. So, with that in mind, and since Muslims and the Muslim faith are de-humanized to you anyway, I will spend a little time sharing with you what I have observed that you, your beliefs, and your faith represent. I do not see you people speaking up about this. To me, that makes you supporters of those who rob the old and disabled, sexually assault children, and what's up with that dog? Building trust with these people "in the name of Jesus", victimizing them, then looking overseas for others to condemn are contemptible actions.

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (Indiana's NewsCenter) - A Fort Wayne pastor and businessman is accused of stealing money from the accounts of developmentally disabled adults living in group homes that he oversees. 56-year-old Ernest Beal, junior is charged with one-count of felony theft.

"In the name of Jesus"

CENTER HILL -- A former youth pastor was charged with four counts of sexual battery Tuesday, on accusations he had a four-year sexual relationship with a teen-aged member of the church. Jose Alfredo Coronado, 38, of Center Hill, was arrested at his job at the Sumter County Supervisor of Elections office. He is being held at the Sumter County jail in lieu of $120,000 bail.

"In the name of Jesus"

A pastor for the Church of God of Prophecy in Salt Lake City faces felony charges for allegedly exposing himself on the Internet and asking a police officer posing as a minor sexually explicit questions. The pastor faces four third-degree felony charges of attempted dealing in material harmful to a minor after an investigation by the Utah Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) task force. The 67-year-old was in a chat room when he asked the questions and exposed himself on a Web camera, according to a news release from the Utah Attorney General's Office. This occurred several times, including once while he was using the Internet while visiting his wife in the hospital, the release said.

"In the name of Jesus"

REIDSVILLE, N.C. -- A Reidsville man is in jail after police said a 15-year-old girl said he had sexual dealings with her. Rockingham County sheriff's deputies said 56-year-old Gary Thomas Wheeler had sex with the teenager since early 2009. Wheeler told deputies he is a self employed painter and pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church in Rockingham County.

"In the name of Jesus"

MIAMI, May 19 (UPI) -- U.S. officials say a Florida pastor led a real estate money laundering operation on behalf of Miami cocaine dealers. A federal indictment unsealed Monday in Miami alleged Garry Souffrant, 33, identified as the pastor of God First Ministries in Miami Gardens, Fla
A Maryland pastor has been charged with multiple counts of sexual child abuse. The Charles County Sheriffs Special Victims Unit arrested Tony Ray Malbrough, 44, of Indian Head, on January 18.

"In the name of Jesus" <sniff>

Charles County Sheriffs began investigating when they were contacted by a 14-year-old boy who reported he had been sexually abused by Malbrough, while receiving music lessons at Malbrough's home. Police say their investigators learned that the abuse occurred on multiple occasions over a period of years, and involved other children known to the 14-year-old victim. Police say at the time of the alleged abuse, Malbrough was a pastor at a church in Charles county.

"In the name of Jesus"

It's another prison sentence for the pastor of a Woodlawn church accused of sexually abusing boys in his congregation. Gerald Griffith pleaded guilty Wednesday in Towson to child sexual abuse in a case involving five Baltimore County accusers.

"In the name of Jesus"

A youth pastor was arrested at his church Thursday on charges he sexually abused a child, records show.Justin Ray Peterson, 31, was arrested at 2 p.m. at River of Life Church in Lutz, jail records show. He is a youth pastor at the church.

"In the name of Jesus"

Sheriff's deputies in Louisiana made a third arrest Wednesday in the ongoing investigation of a case involving allegations of sexual abuse of children and animals at a Ponchatoula, La., church.

Austin Aaron Bernard III, 36, was arrested on a charge of aggravated rape of a child under the age of 13. Police said Bernard confessed to detectives that he had sex with a young girl in November 2002 and admitted to knowing about sexual acts involving children and a dog that occurred at Hosanna Church.

"In the name of Jesus" <woof> <woof>

Former youth pastor Timothy Edmonds was sentenced to 10- to 20-years in prison for sexual abuse of a teenaged girl.

"In the name of Jesus"

A pastor described by police as charismatic and controlling pleaded guilty Wednesday to numerous counts of child rape and molestation involving five young girls in Kitsap County.

"In the name of Jesus"

In what the detective investigating it described as Missouri's biggest clergy sex-abuse to date, Shawn Davies, a 33-year-old former music and youth minister, was sentenced Jan. 12 to 20 years in prison for molesting children at First Baptist Church of Greenwood, Mo. Davies was convicted of 25 counts of abuse dating from 2003. Charges included statutory sodomy, furnishing pornographic material to minors, supplying liquor to minors, sexual misconduct with a child under the age of 14, use of a child in sexual performance and endangering the welfare of a child.

"In the name of Jesus"

Sorry, WII - all of these things were done out of pride, greed, selfishness and dishonesty. It has nothing to do with supporting a religious view to obtain an outcome. It has everything to do with "sin" that the Bible teaches against. No one in the Christian community would support these people as doing something "for Jesus". We would say they did it "for themselves".

Not the same as chopping off someone's head or strapping on a bomb to kill in order to spend eternity with a boatload of virgins.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I know it was just not fear of being labelled a racist that brought Obama to office. I am glad you see that light. WASPs just HATE the idea that he might just have been honestly elected lol.

It appears from your posts that you have some hostility not just towards America; not just towards Christianity; but also white folks.

Let me try to make something very clear to you. I am thrilled for the sake of all black Americans that thought it could never be done; that it was done. I am thrilled that some no longer wish to be called African Americans. (I always hated that term).

When the first man broke the 4 minute mile; he did not do something that couldn't have been done before. But he did make it obvious to others that it could be done. So it is with Obama.

Had Colin Powell run for office 8 years earlier; I would have voted for him in a heart beat; as would much of America. (As a side note; there is no way I would vote for him now. He showed a severe lack of judgment in endorsing Obama).

In fact; this WASP doesn't believe it was an honest election. From the lack of a birth certificate, to illegal international campaign contributions, to whatever Acorn may have done and what the Media didn't do.

Finally, just as an aside; Obama built up coalitions of power by appealing to various groups that are competing against each other; so that he can never satisfy any of them.

We have the Environmentalists in opposition to Unions;
We have the women lib groups in opposition to Muslims;
We have the black Christian vote in opposition to gay marriage;
We have the Catholic vote in opposition to the pro choice group.

The irony is the groups that brought him to power don't get it yet. They think everything is going to be better after Obama destroys the free enterprise system and gives them all a job making windmills (so long as they can't be seen from a Liberal's house).

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

This post started as a discussion of Obama's apology. This post did not start as an "Islam bashing" party. His apology was to muslims hurt by the Taliban, Iran's muslim neighbors who now have guns and potentially nuclear weapons pointed at them, and other places in the world where WE replaced one bad thing with another with no thought to the consequences of our actions.

I believe FERD can address this much better than I can. But what if we wouldn't have intervened (however imperfectly if we did)?

Would the Middle East REALLY be better off today? Would Russian or Arabic be the official language? Would everything be peaceful in the Middle East or has this region always been one of war and dictators?

Maybe its time for some brutal honesty among the people rather than excuses.

[CC1]

Newperson, thank you for carrying the ball here and making some excellent posts.

[Walks_in_islam]

Thank you. You are summarizing my words, and not excuses either, for the things, evil things, that are done "in the name of islam". Were not the old executioners of 'heretics' just as evil?

This is ALL you can say. Those who founded our country deliberately and tactically PUT and FRAMED the basis and foundation of our government to protect themselves (and us) from these and similar things. Because for hundreds of years the church was the state and the bible was the book and what evil deeds were done in the name of the church. Do you think those old men, Jefferson and Adams and the framers of our law were thinking of "muslims" and "islam" when they wrote those protections into our constitution? They felt and had to do that not to protect themselves from christians but to protect themselves from those in power back home who set themselves up with arms and men and power professing to represent "christianity" and do I need to summarize what was done under that umbrella during that time? Some of your own denominations started in blood, from "other christians" who would crush or oppose it.

Who could stand up then? Do you know what happened to those who stood up to the "church" in those days? We are lucky that there ARE non-christians to drag these 'men of god' from their pulpits and prosecute them and that the "church" is not the "state" because if it was, from a historical basis, there would be f- all you could do about it.

You people stand proudly in that crowd with that history behind you with deliberate and solid protections in place - protections that save you from yourselves and those among you who would place themselves EXACTLY where the most cruel and radical mis-teacher of "islam" places himself today. Then you judge the victims of those you armed and supported and dare to imply that those victims who are just going about their lives are in some way responsible for the suffering they endure from those your money and your bullets and your guns and your grenades put in power for an entirely different purpose.

No wonder they hate you. I am ashamed for what we put these people through.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sorry, WII - all of these things were done out of pride, greed, selfishness and dishonesty. It has nothing to do with supporting a religious view to obtain an outcome. It has everything to do with "sin" that the Bible teaches against. No one in the Christian community would support these people as doing something "for Jesus". We would say they did it "for themselves".

Not the same as chopping off someone's head or strapping on a bomb to kill in order to spend eternity with a boatload of virgins.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Thank you. You are summarizing my words, and not excuses either, for the things, evil things, that are done "in the name of islam". Were not the old executioners of 'heretics' just as evil?

Yes, but you don't see that happening anywhere anymore. All the things you quoted from the news were not done "in the name of Jesus" as you asserted.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Thank you. You are summarizing my words, and not excuses either, for the things, evil things, that are done "in the name of islam". Were not the old executioners of 'heretics' just as evil?

This is ALL you can say. Those who founded our country deliberately and tactically PUT and FRAMED the basis and foundation of our government to protect themselves (and us) from these and similar things. Because for hundreds of years the church was the state and the bible was the book and what evil deeds were done in the name of the church. Do you think those old men, Jefferson and Adams and the framers of our law were thinking of "muslims" and "islam" when they wrote those protections into our constitution? They felt and had to do that not to protect themselves from christians but to protect themselves from those in power back home who set themselves up with arms and men and power professing to represent "christianity" and do I need to summarize what was done under that umbrella during that time? Some of your own denominations started in blood, from "other christians" who would crush or oppose it.

Who could stand up then? Do you know what happened to those who stood up to the "church" in those days? We are lucky that there ARE non-christians to drag these 'men of god' from their pulpits and prosecute them and that the "church" is not the "state" because if it was, from a historical basis, there would be f- all you could do about it.

You people stand proudly in that crowd with that history behind you with deliberate and solid protections in place - protections that save you from yourselves and those among you who would place themselves EXACTLY where the most cruel and radical mis-teacher of "islam" places himself today. Then you judge the victims of those you armed and supported and dare to imply that those victims who are just going about their lives are in some way responsible for the suffering they endure from those your money and your bullets and your guns and your grenades put in power for an entirely different purpose.

No wonder they hate you. I am ashamed for what we put these people through.

"Those" days is correct, WII. What you are overlooking is that Christian men pulled away from those that ruled with a strong arm because it was not the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. You can't overlook the Reformation and the things that Martin Luther accomplished against the Catholic Church and it's selling of indulgences, etc. He didn't get everything right, infant baptism, etc, but it was a start.

The men that founded our country knew the hearts of men who could love the welding of power without restraint in more areas than religion alone. That was and is the bottom line for our founding documents and laws.

Sharia law is not, in any way, a "moral law" that would guide a person's path of moral distinctions. It is a blend of political theory and of penal law, which requires violators to be punished through the sword of the state.

Christianity, on the other hand, shows that Jesus Christ recognized the realm of human government as something legitimate. Therefore, He says, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21. In Islam there is not a distinction between church and state - in that sense.

What you have to deal with is the voice behind Islam. Saudi Arabia employs the strictest interpretations of Sharia law and they are the voice that needs to stand up and speak against the atrocities in the name of Allah for Islam - everywhere. They don't do that and that is a problem. This is what America is seeing. That makes you ALL suspect as to your underlying motives in the long term.

It doesn't appear to be an "individual" error being conducted by the Muslim, like the nutcase at the Holocaust Museum. We don't hear your major Islamic nations speaking out against the atrocities being engaged in all over the world. When a man acts outside of the Christian Gospel, you will find we speak out against the sin. We are "free" to do that. As evidence of that, you can read threads, here, where people strongly speak out against issues they believe are not Biblical for doctrine, reproof or correction in righteous.

Perhaps you could be a voice or would you be killed for turning against your Muslim brothers, even if you were right?

As to the atrocities of war, we have armed some Muslims nations when we were fighting Communism. We joined together to fight against it. That's just a given. I don't believe we understood the "lion" we were unleashing by doing that.

The strategy to use Islam as a tool of policy did have "blowback". Our strategy of effective support for Islamic ambitions in our pursuit of a short-term political or military objective has helped turn Islamic radicalism into a global phenomenon. The thought was that we could use militant Muslims and eventually discard them, but we are living to regret that.

For instance, the Carter Administration instigated Islamic resistance to the pro-Soviet government in Afghanistan maneuvering Moscow into a military intervention. The "blowback". in these instances using militant Islam for the destruction of Communism, only caused a mass immigration, which only compounded the error.

But don't overlook the fact that ex-President Suharto, who was not even a devout Muslim, used Islamic fanatics as allies in his various campaigns. In 1989, the Amnesty International estimated 200,000 East Timorese were murdered in Indonesia.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I know it was just not fear of being labelled a racist that brought Obama to office. I am glad you see that light. WASPs just HATE the idea that he might just have been honestly elected lol.

Those victims were innocent Muslims. Their perpetrators were criminals. Your inability to separate the two tells me that you have "Muslims" classified as one group and you have everyone in the group, regardless of who they are, where they live, where they are from, or what they do in one category and everything you see or hear about that category is automatically applied to the group as a whole. So, with that in mind, and since Muslims and the Muslim faith are de-humanized to you anyway, I will spend a little time sharing with you what I have observed that you, your beliefs, and your faith represent. I do not see you people speaking up about this. To me, that makes you supporters of those who rob the old and disabled, sexually assault children, and what's up with that dog? Building trust with these people "in the name of Jesus", victimizing them, then looking overseas for others to condemn are contemptible actions.

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (Indiana's NewsCenter) - A Fort Wayne pastor and businessman is accused of stealing money from the accounts of developmentally disabled adults living in group homes that he oversees. 56-year-old Ernest Beal, junior is charged with one-count of felony theft.

"In the name of Jesus"

CENTER HILL -- A former youth pastor was charged with four counts of sexual battery Tuesday, on accusations he had a four-year sexual relationship with a teen-aged member of the church. Jose Alfredo Coronado, 38, of Center Hill, was arrested at his job at the Sumter County Supervisor of Elections office. He is being held at the Sumter County jail in lieu of $120,000 bail.

"In the name of Jesus"

A pastor for the Church of God of Prophecy in Salt Lake City faces felony charges for allegedly exposing himself on the Internet and asking a police officer posing as a minor sexually explicit questions. The pastor faces four third-degree felony charges of attempted dealing in material harmful to a minor after an investigation by the Utah Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) task force. The 67-year-old was in a chat room when he asked the questions and exposed himself on a Web camera, according to a news release from the Utah Attorney General's Office. This occurred several times, including once while he was using the Internet while visiting his wife in the hospital, the release said.

"In the name of Jesus"

REIDSVILLE, N.C. -- A Reidsville man is in jail after police said a 15-year-old girl said he had sexual dealings with her. Rockingham County sheriff's deputies said 56-year-old Gary Thomas Wheeler had sex with the teenager since early 2009. Wheeler told deputies he is a self employed painter and pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church in Rockingham County.

"In the name of Jesus"

MIAMI, May 19 (UPI) -- U.S. officials say a Florida pastor led a real estate money laundering operation on behalf of Miami cocaine dealers. A federal indictment unsealed Monday in Miami alleged Garry Souffrant, 33, identified as the pastor of God First Ministries in Miami Gardens, Fla
A Maryland pastor has been charged with multiple counts of sexual child abuse. The Charles County Sheriffs Special Victims Unit arrested Tony Ray Malbrough, 44, of Indian Head, on January 18.

"In the name of Jesus" <sniff>

Charles County Sheriffs began investigating when they were contacted by a 14-year-old boy who reported he had been sexually abused by Malbrough, while receiving music lessons at Malbrough's home. Police say their investigators learned that the abuse occurred on multiple occasions over a period of years, and involved other children known to the 14-year-old victim. Police say at the time of the alleged abuse, Malbrough was a pastor at a church in Charles county.

"In the name of Jesus"

It's another prison sentence for the pastor of a Woodlawn church accused of sexually abusing boys in his congregation. Gerald Griffith pleaded guilty Wednesday in Towson to child sexual abuse in a case involving five Baltimore County accusers.

"In the name of Jesus"

A youth pastor was arrested at his church Thursday on charges he sexually abused a child, records show.Justin Ray Peterson, 31, was arrested at 2 p.m. at River of Life Church in Lutz, jail records show. He is a youth pastor at the church.

"In the name of Jesus"

Sheriff's deputies in Louisiana made a third arrest Wednesday in the ongoing investigation of a case involving allegations of sexual abuse of children and animals at a Ponchatoula, La., church.

Austin Aaron Bernard III, 36, was arrested on a charge of aggravated rape of a child under the age of 13. Police said Bernard confessed to detectives that he had sex with a young girl in November 2002 and admitted to knowing about sexual acts involving children and a dog that occurred at Hosanna Church.

"In the name of Jesus" <woof> <woof>

Former youth pastor Timothy Edmonds was sentenced to 10- to 20-years in prison for sexual abuse of a teenaged girl.

"In the name of Jesus"

A pastor described by police as charismatic and controlling pleaded guilty Wednesday to numerous counts of child rape and molestation involving five young girls in Kitsap County.

"In the name of Jesus"

In what the detective investigating it described as Missouri's biggest clergy sex-abuse to date, Shawn Davies, a 33-year-old former music and youth minister, was sentenced Jan. 12 to 20 years in prison for molesting children at First Baptist Church of Greenwood, Mo. Davies was convicted of 25 counts of abuse dating from 2003. Charges included statutory sodomy, furnishing pornographic material to minors, supplying liquor to minors, sexual misconduct with a child under the age of 14, use of a child in sexual performance and endangering the welfare of a child.

"In the name of Jesus"

1. As others have already responded; these were not acts done in the name of Jesus.

2. They were condemned by Christians.

3. They were NEWS because it isn't part of our religion to take young children as multiple wives.

[SOUNWORTHY]

WII, tell us about child abuse.


Excerpts from Hosken Report, Somalia Genital and Sexual Mutilation of Females, Fourth Revised Edition(Women’s International Network News) (PDF 66 KB): "The child, completely naked, is made to sit on a low stool. Several women take hold of her and open her legs wide. After separating her outer and inner lips, the operator, usually a woman experienced in this procedure, sits down facing the child. With her kitchen knife the operator first pierces and slices open the hood of the clitoris. Then she begins to cut it out. While another woman wipes off the blood with a rag, the operator digs with her sharp fingernail a hole the length of the clitoris to detach and pull out the organ. The little girl, held down by the women helpers, screams in extreme pain; but no one pays the slightest attention.The operator finishes this job by entirely pulling out the clitoris, cutting it to the bone with her knife. Her helpers again wipe off the spurting blood with a rag. The operator then removes the remaining flesh, digging with her finger to remove any remnant of the clitoris among the flowing blood. The neighbor women are then invited to plunge their fingers into the bloody hole to verify that every piece of the clitoris is removed."

Or this:

Ahmadinejad's Demons (Matthias Küntzel, The New Republic, Apr 24, 2006): During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. ... To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they marched in formation across minefields toward the enemy, clearing a path with their bodies. Before every mission, one of the Taiwanese keys would be hung around each child’s neck. It was supposed to open the gates to paradise for them. At one point, however, the earthly gore became a matter of concern. “In the past,” wrote the semi-official Iranian daily Ettelaat as the war raged on, “we had child-volunteers: 14-, 15-, and 16-year-olds. They went into the minefields. Their eyes saw nothing. Their ears heard nothing. And then, a few moments later, one saw clouds of dust. When the dust had settled again, there was nothing more to be seen of them. Somewhere, widely scattered in the landscape, there lay scraps of burnt flesh and pieces of bone.” Such scenes would henceforth be avoided, Ettelaat assured its readers. “Before entering the minefields, the children [now] wrap themselves in blankets and they roll on the ground, so that their body parts stay together after the explosion of the mines and one can carry them to the graves.” In the name of allah

Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Khomeini's Religious Teachings on Marriage, Divorce and Relationships (Parvin Darabi, USA-based Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation website, Jun 10, 2006: "A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."

Mutilated baby at Shia Muslim Ashura festival