God, Is My Obededience Not Enough?: When HH Fails

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

All done because of faith in Christ .... the horse comes first ... PO agrees w/ this.

I disagree. Faith and works are intertwined. Read James.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

I disagree. Faith and works are intertwined. Read James.

They are linked but not one and the same... works follow faith ....

If their is genuine faith ... there will be genuine works ....that follow

He is the vine ... we are the branches ... the fruit is His.

That which is dead is dead ... unless His regenerative Spirit does not quicken us to life ... they are dead works.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They are linked but not one and the same... works follow faith ....

If their is genuine faith ... their will be genuine works ....

He is the vine ... we are the branches ... the fruit is His.

Bingo!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

Bingo!

Yet it is cause and effect, my friend ... which you cannot separate in your mind.

Not faith in faith ... but faith that he will produce works that meet repentance ... fruit that are His ... not ours so that we may boast.

[SDG]

Still waiting Ron ... on what law you speak of ...???

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

All done because of faith in Christ .... the horse comes first ... PO agrees w/ this.

Our turning around requires that initial faith IN JESUS CHRIST... the rest is fruit .... which as Baron said DO NOT PERFECT ME.

I do agree that faith comes first. It must!

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

I then believe our faith, our God directed commitments and our works become so intertwined that it's all of one thing, knowing our faith resides in Him alone.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

Did you read the context of which he was writing?
There were Judaizers creeping in who were trying to keep the works of the law.

We don't live by the law.

We still are supposed to forsake sin.

Nice try.

Another point in which this thinking breaks down is yes he's speaking about Judaizers ... and yes they were adding to salvation through the law ...

but Paul points to a bigger principle that we are perfected by His Spirit and not the flesh .... whether it be obedience to the law or our good works ... or even works we deem to be by faith .... it is fleshly centered and driven.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yet it is cause and effect, my friend ... which you cannot separate in your mind.

Not faith in faith ... but faith that he will produce works that meet repentance ... fruit that are His ... not ours so that we may boast.

I am still at a loss as to what you are saying about works????

I repent because I believe God, he then gives me Grace to do what I need to do.

I don't boast that I can do what God wants me to do.

I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Another point in which this thinking breaks down is yes he's speaking about Judaizers ... and yes they were adding to salvation through the law ...

but Paul points to a bigger principle that we are perfected by His Spirit and not the flesh .... whether it be obedience to the law or our good works ... it is fleshly centered and driven.

Only if you are looking for justification by those works.

When I have done my best, I still fall short.
My righteousness is still filthy rags.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

Only if you are looking for justification by those works.

When I have done my best, I still fall short.
My righteousness is still filthy rags.

And yet many believe that unless certain works are attained first on the checklist ... proving one's "commitment" ... placing faith in that commitment ... than there is no righteous standing before ... God ...

The very thing Keith has said.