Water/Spirit

[OneAccord]

Just a litlle something I'm workin' on.....

Ye must be Born Again
These are some of the most important words, and some of the most familiar words, in the entire Bible. With these 5 simple words, Jesus revealed just what it means to be a Christian. But, what do these words really mean? The answer to that question varies among the various Christian groups. But we can know precisely what Jesus meant by looking directly at the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. By studying this discourse in the absence of preconceived religious rhetoric, we can find the answer we seek. And, in doing so, we will strip away some of the controversy surrounding the subject of being “born again”.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Its important to note the exact words that Jesus used here. The key words for this study are see and kingdom of God.

The word “see” here has various meanings, but, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can know exactly what thought Jesus meant to convey. Of course, the word “see” means “to look, to observe with the eyes, to inspect”, but, we know that Jesus said in Luke 17:20 that “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: “ We cannot see the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not some tangible something that can be seen with the natural eye. So, in John 3:3, when Jesus used the word “see” he meant “to perceive, notice, discern, discover, to experience any state or condition, to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive”.

Jesus was saying to Nicodemus: “Except a man be born again, he cannot understand or comprehend the Kingdom of God.” And, we know this is true by once again comparing Scripture with Scripture. The Apostle Paul wrote in 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." The “natural man” is the unconverted, the unregenerated man. Someone who has not been “born again” cannot know, or understand, the things of God.

The Kingdom of God and not Heaven.

Again, the precise words that Jesus used is very important. Jesus said, Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Notice the term “kingdom of God” is used instead of the words “kingdom of heaven”. This is significant because there is a vast difference in the two kingdoms. The kingdom of God refers to the Church of the Living God. When a person is “born again” , he becomes a part of the Kingdom of God or the Church. The Kingdom of God is the here and now, while the Kingdom of Heaven is the hereafter. Again, compare Scripture with Scripture. Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." The term “Kingdom of God” is synonymous with “The Church”, “the Body of Christ”. The Kingdom of Heaven refers to “the abode of the righteous dead”. The hereafter. Unless we are born again, we cannot even comprehend the Body of Christ, and we certainly cannot enter therein.

The second statement Jesus spoke to Nicodemus is this:
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
There is a slight difference in wording here when compared with John 3:3. There, Jesus used the word “see”. Here is uses the word “enter”. A slight difference, indeed, but a very significant difference, to say the least.

There are other subtle differences between verse 3 and verse 5:. In verse 3 Jesus used the term “born AGAIN”. In verse 5, He said, “born of water and of the Spirit.“ Admittedly, it seems we are “splitting hairs” here, but the understanding of the precise words here is crucial. The fact that we must be born again is so vital, Jesus reiterated the statement in verse 7. Notice again: “born AGAIN” and “born of water and of the Spirit”. Notice the absence of the word “again” in verse 5? This is significant. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that, unless we are born of the water and Sprit, we can not enter the kingdom of God. Through repentance, we can see, or understand the things of God (i.e, our worship, basic biblical teaching, etc), but, unless we obey the Lord by being baptized in water and receiving the Holy Ghost, we cannot fully enter the depths of a relationship with the Lord. The Bible tells us “And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him“. Act 5:32 Unless we completely submit to Him, the Holy Spirit, by which the Gifts of the Spirit operate, are not available to us. Without obeying, or submitting, to the Lord, we cannot enter into service for the Lord.

Spiritual… not natural
Some believe Jesus was speaking of the natural birth in this discussion with Nicodemus. The inquiring Nicodemus, who had not yet been “born again”, could not understand what Jesus was saying. He even asked, “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” Jhn 3:4 Jesus’ answer made it clear that Jesus was not speaking of the natural birth.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jhn 3:6 ". Nowhere in this discourse was Jesus referring to the natural birth. He was speaking of a “spiritual rebirth”

Moses saw…but did not enter

The Old Testament gives a prime example. Moses led the Children of Israel through the wilderness. At one point, Moses failed to obey God. As result, Moses was ony allowed to SEE the Promised Land, but, due to his failure, was not able to ENTER into Canaan. The repentant, by virtual of being “born again” can see (or understand) the things of God, but, unless He fully submits to the Lord, can never fully “enter” in to God’s Kingdom and service. Paul made this clear in I Corinthians 12: 13, “For by one Spirit are we baptized (born, enter) into One Body….”

By reading this discourse in the absence a pre-concieved teaching, we can readily see:

1. Repentance- Being born again, regenerated, without which we cannot understand or see the things of God. We are in spiritual darkness until we come to Jesus, the Light of the World.

2. Water Baptism- The first step in the new Christian life. We submit to water baptism as a public profession of our faith in the saving Blood of Jesus Christ.

3. Holy Ghost Baptism- Our Power for service and living a victorious Christian Life. The Gifts of the Spirit become available to us when we receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, whereby we can ENTER into The Lord’s service.

Wrestling with the Scriptures

In conclusion…Jesus was not, as some think, speaking of the natural birth. He made that point abundantly clear. And, He was not referring to the Kingdom of Heaven. To use this discourse to argue the point that one must be born again to enter heaven is, as Peter said, to “wrest with the Scriptures”. "As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:16" Plainly spoken, it is mis-applying the Scriptures to fit our belief, when, in fact, we should be examining, and, if necessary, re-aligning our beliefs in light of the Scriptures...

Jesus was simply and clearly saying that, unless we are “reborn spiritually”, we cannot even begin to understand the very fundamentals of the Christian Life. And, He continued by saying that, unless we are “born of water and Spirit”, (signify the departure from the sinful life (baptism) and receiving the Holy Ghost), we cannot fully and completely enter in to the Lord’s work (His Kingdom).

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


In todays modern English

There was this dude named Nic, a boss man of the Jews.

Nic came scoping out Jesus one night, and said "Dude, I know you got connections, cause no body without connections can bring it on the way you do

Big J said to him, "I lie not homie, Unless you are born from above, You can't scope out what I am talking about".

Then Nic said, "Yo Big J, How can I be born from above when I am old. Can my momma birth me again?

Big J said, " Nic, unless you have had a water and a Spirit birth, you can't join my gang. your first birth gives you life here, but your second birth give you life everlasting. Are you tripping because I said you must be born from above?

Right on, brother! And dat second birth ain't got nuthin to do wit the first one! Sho nuff!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Rico

Sounds good. Too bad it doesn't follow the conversation they actually had. Nice try though.

Read it again. It states it just like it is.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Read it again. It states it just like it is.

No, it does not. You've translated it according to your understanding of it, St. Matt. I could do the same thing, using my understanding.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Rico

No, it does not. You've translated it according to your understanding of it, St. Matt. I could do the same thing, using my understanding.

Bro, tell me what I said in the post that does not match.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Rico

No, it does not. You've translated it according to your understanding of it, St. Matt. I could do the same thing, using my understanding.

Do it.

[stmatthew]

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

There was this dude named Nic, a boss man of the Jews.



Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Nic came scoping out Jesus one night, and said "Dude, I know you got connections, cause no body without connections can bring it on the way you do



Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Big J said to him, "I lie not homie, Unless you are born from above, You can't scope out what I am talking about".



Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Then Nic said, "Yo Big J, How can I be born from above when I am old. Can my momma birth me again?



Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Big J said, " Nic, unless you have had a water and a Spirit birth, you can't join my gang.



Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Your first birth gives you life here, but your second birth give you life everlasting.



Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Are you tripping because I said you must be born from above?




Here it is paired up verse by verse. What is wrong in the translation??

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Rico

Brother, I don't generally argue this point too much, mainly because people start to accuse me of being a one-stepper, when I'm not. I believe very much in baptism, always have. However, I can not, in good conscience, advocate that Jesus was talking about water baptism in that verse, although water baptism is most certainly an element of being spiritually born. Water baptism is always symbolic of burial when spoken of in NT salvation, never birth. Jesus is simply contrasting natural birth (what Nicodemus thought He was talking about) and spiritual birth. Feel free to see it any way you choose, but remember that there is a whole lot more in the Bible that can be used to prove the necessity of baptism. There's no need to take Jesus words out of context to get there.

Actually, I agree with you (the bold part, anyway. Like some who use Eph. 4:5 to support the argument for water baptim. The preceeding verses makes it clear Paul wasn't referring to water baptism. Its ironic, isn't it? I am a One stepper (in that I believe sins are forgiven and remitted when one repents of their sins -born again) , but believe water baptism and Spirit to be necessary and vital first steps of new life in Christ. And, I do believe, in light of Acts 2:38, 1 John 5:7 and others, that Jesus was, in fact, referring to water baptism in John 3:5. I just fail to see (understand, comprehend)how "born of water" equates with natural birth.... unless we reallllllllllllly strrrrrrrretch it out there to refer to the release of the embryonic fluid at natural birth. We could say that, but that, IMO, would have to be one loooooooooooooong strrrrrrrrrrrretch!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Actually, I agree with you (the bold part, anyway. Like some who use Eph. 4:5 to support the argument for water baptim. The preceeding verses makes it clear Paul wasn't referring to water baptism. Its ironic, isn't it? I am a One stepper (in that I believe sins are forgiven and remitted when one repents of their sins -born again) , but believe water baptism and Spirit to be necessary and vital first steps of new life in Christ. And, I do believe, in light of Acts 2:38, 1 John 5:7 and others, that Jesus was, in fact, referring to water baptism in John 3:5. I just fail to see (understand, comprehend)how "born of water" equates with natural birth.... unless we reallllllllllllly strrrrrrrretch it out there to refer to the release of the embryonic fluid at natural birth. We could say that, but that, IMO, would have to be one loooooooooooooong strrrrrrrrrrrretch!

Just a question, what do you see the birth of the Spirit being?

Is it the new birth?

Can one be born of the Spirit, and yet not have received the Spirit?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Bro, tell me what I said in the post that does not match.

Ok. Just for fun, and because you asked. (honestly, I hate doing this sort of thing with people. It stops being about truth and starts being about who is better at making an argument!)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:1-7 (KJV)


A fella named Nicodemus walks up to Jesus on night and says to him, "Jesus, we know you are the man when it comes to anything pertaining to God. You got it goin on with all these miracles you do. No one could walk that kinda talk unless he was hooked up big time." Jesus tells him, "Ya gotta be born again to even see where I'm comin from." Nicodemus says, "Huh? How can a brotha be born again? What's he gotta do, go back into his mama again and be born?" Jesus answers, "A man has to be born into this world and be born into the world of the Spirit. Otherwise, he ain't gettin into God's kingdom." Whatever is born of this world is of this world, and whatever is born of the Spirit world is of the Spirit world. Don't be so surprised that I said you have to be born again.