Is AFF the "Apostate Forum" ???

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Please. An apostate is an apostate. You'll know a tree by its fruit.

Lets go with a simple, but widely accepted definition here:an apostate is one who has departed from the truth.

Thus, from an Apostolic perspective, the ex-apostolics and anti-apostolics are apostates. Plain and simple. I'm not saying you necessarily have to be in someone's face, just because you recognize him to be an apostate. But even the most basic discernment allows us to see an apostate for who he is.

Some of you are making it sound like its so "judgmental" to recognize deem someone an apostate. Not at all. It is not judgmental to recognize an apostate for who he is... no more than it would be wrong to recognize that the tree bearing lemons must be a lemon tree.

In the NT, Paul, Jude, John, and others spoke plainly of apostates and apostasy in their day. Why should we be afraid of speaking on it in our day?

Back to the issue in question... is AFF an "apostate board"? I'd say of course not. But are there some who post here, or have posted here, who could/should be considered apostates based on their doctrinal positions? No question.

And yes, we know God will judge in due time as necessary, but in the meantime lets not get so soft, or politically correct, that we fail to recognize a tree by its very obvious fruit.

I would prefer to allow people to label themselves. There is tremendous diversity in the Oneness Pentecostal movement. So much so, that some that you call "apostate" are really practicing beliefs that were current in the early 1900's.

Also, I'm certain that we can find those who would label you as an apostate. Let's let people label themselves. That way if they want to use the tag "ex-pentecostal" or whatever- then we can dialog with them respectfully.

For me, I began to become an "apostate" when I read the writings of John Dearing and A.D. Urshan. Stanley Chambers pretty much solidified my views when I watched him being riduculed as a "compromiser" by a small "tough as nails" crowd from Texas. So my "apostacy" is really me getting back to the roots of the OP movement.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by StMark

Well just know this,there's a certain forum that thinks we are all a bunch of Apostates(w/t exception of a few members here)

Let's not get into names now

All I will say about that is, one must be careful when casting stones at another that the chickens don't come home to roost.

[scotty]

Apostates?!?!--thought that was Sis. Buelahs "apostolic potatoes" she always made for pot luck...mmmm mmmm dem thangs turnd us all from fasting

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I would prefer to allow people to label themselves. There is tremendous diversity in the Oneness Pentecostal movement. So much so, that some that you call "apostate" are really practicing beliefs that were current in the early 1900's.

Also, I'm certain that we can find those who would label you as an apostate. Let's let people label themselves. That way if they want to use the tag "ex-pentecostal" or whatever- then we can dialog with them respectfully.

For me, I began to become an "apostate" when I read the writings of John Dearing and A.D. Urshan. Stanley Chambers pretty much solidified my views when I watched him being riduculed as a "compromiser" by a small "tough as nails" crowd from Texas. So my "apostacy" is really me getting back to the roots of the OP movement.

"Let people label themselves:? Gee. Sound nice. Then again so does "give peace a chance" or "make love, not war" or some other wishful phrase we can come up with. In the real world, it doesnt quite fly.

Have I ever referred to an apostate as such, in direct conversation with him? Of course not. I can still disagree while being respectful in speaking to him/her. But when they tell me they no longer believe in Apostolic doctrine, or even start fighting and opposing Apostolic doctrine, then its clear to me what they are.

The the idea of not "labeling" people is wishy-washy. The concept of apostasy is biblical. Paul spoke on it, as did other NT writers. Thus there must be , and are, people who fit that description of being apostates. You said you prefer for people to label themselves? Who is going to label himself as an apostate? No one. So does that mean we shouldn't use the word? Of course not.

And Jesus lets us know we'll know a tree by its fruit. So to somehow not recognize some one as an apostate. Go back to what I said earlier. I'm not saying we have to addres them as such, but to not recognize that they have departed from sound doctrine is foolish and unbiblical.

Jesus himself said dont cast your pearls before swine. Obviously he's not talking about livestock here - the swine is certain kinds of people. So obviously he's expecting us to use some kind of judgment to determine that a person would fall in this category as being what He called "swine". On various messge boards, I've come to recognize "swine" often, and make sure not to cast my pearls before them. Now do I call them swine? of course not. But God expects us to use the basic biblical discernment to be able to recognize such "swine", or as the case may be, to recognize apostates. That's not being "judgmental" , as some might claim. Jesus himself said we should judge with "righteous judgment" (Jn 7:24) .

And PS...
I'm aware that the idea of considering one an apostate is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure some ultra conservatives might consider me, a moderate, to be Apostate in some way. But that's irrelevant to this conversation though. Because if the Apostolic faith is the truth, then those who have departed from it have met the definition of what an apostate is, plain and simple. Its not a matter of me "labeling them" They have labeled themselves by their own actions.

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Because if the Apostolic faith is the truth, then those who have departed from it have met the definition of what an apostate is, plain and simple. Its not a matter of me "labeling them" They have labeled themselves by their own actions.

I'm curious. Do you have a LIST of what you refer to as APOSTOLIC TRUTHS.

I truthfully would like a run-down on that.

I especially need fine-tuned the definition of "living and overcoming life."

Thanks.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

"Let people label themselves:? Gee. Sound nice. Then again so does "give peace a chance" or "make love, not war" or some other wishful phrase we can come up with. In the real world, it doesnt quite fly.

Have I ever referred to an apostate as such, in direct conversation with him? Of course not. I can still disagree while being respectful in speaking to him/her. But when they tell me they no longer believe in Apostolic doctrine, or even start fighting and opposing Apostolic doctrine, then its clear to me what they are.

The the idea of not "labeling" people is wishy-washy. The concept of apostasy is biblical. Paul spoke on it, as did other NT writers. Thus there must be , and are, people who fit that description of being apostates. You said you prefer for people to label themselves? Who is going to label himself as an apostate? No one. So does that mean we shouldn't use the word? Of course not.

And Jesus lets us know we'll know a tree by its fruit. So to somehow not recognize some one as an apostate. Go back to what I said earlier. I'm not saying we have to addres them as such, but to not recognize that they have departed from sound doctrine is foolish and unbiblical.

Jesus himself said dont cast your pearls before swine. Obviously he's not talking about livestock here - the swine is certain kinds of people. So obviously he's expecting us to use some kind of judgment to determine that a person would fall in this category as being what He called "swine". On various messge boards, I've come to recognize "swine" often, and make sure not to cast my pearls before them. Now do I call them swine? of course not. But God expects us to use the basic biblical discernment to be able to recognize such "swine", or as the case may be, to recognize apostates. That's not being "judgmental" , as some might claim. Jesus himself said we should judge with "righteous judgment" (Jn 7:24) .

And PS...
I'm aware that the idea of considering one an apostate is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure some ultra conservatives might consider me, a moderate, to be Apostate in some way. But that's irrelevant to this conversation though. Because if the Apostolic faith is the truth, then those who have departed from it have met the definition of what an apostate is, plain and simple. Its not a matter of me "labeling them" They have labeled themselves by their own actions.

The problem is an Apostate in the bible was NOT someone that just did not believe bobbed hair was ok or someone visited a particular forum...that is beyond asinine.

ISBE (Public Domain)
a-pos´ta-si, a-pos´tā̇t (ἡ αποστασία, hē apostasía, “a standing away from”): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith.

Paul was falsely accused of teaching the Jews apostasy from Moses (Act_21:21); he predicted the great apostasy from Christianity, foretold by Jesus (Mat_24:10-12) which would precede “the day of the Lord” (2Th_2:2).

Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude, e.g. the apostasy of angels (Jud_1:6). Foretold, with warnings, as sure to abound in the latter days (1Ti_4:1-3; 2Th_2:3; 2Pe_3:17). Causes of: persecution (Mat_24:9, Mat_24:10); false teachers (Mat_24:11); temptation (Luk_8:13); worldliness (2Ti_4:4); defective knowledge of Christ (1Jo_2:19); moral lapse (Heb_6:4-6); forsaking worship and spiritual living (Heb_10:25-31); unbelief (Heb_3:12).

Biblical examples: Saul (1Sa_15:11); Amaziah (2Ch_25:14, 2Ch_25:27); many disciples (Joh_6:66); Hymeneus and Alexander (1Ti_1:19, 1Ti_1:20); Demas (2Ti_4:10). For further illustration see Deu_13:13; Zep_1:4-6; Gal_5:4; 2Pe_2:20, 2Pe_2:21.

“Forsaking Yahweh” was the characteristic and oft-recurring sin of the chosen people, especially in their contact with idolatrous nations. It constituted their supreme national peril. The tendency appeared in their earliest history, as abundantly seen in the warnings and prohibitions of the laws of Moses (Exo_20:3, Exo_20:4, Exo_20:23; Deu_6:14; Deu_11:16). The fearful consequences of religious and moral apostasy appear in the curses pronounced against this sin, on Mount Ebal, by the representatives of six of the tribes of Israel, elected by Moses (Deu_27:13-26; 28:15-68).

So wayward was the heart of Israel, even in the years immediately following the national emancipation, in the wilderness, that Joshua found it necessary to re-pledge the entire nation to a new fidelity to Yahweh and to their original covenant before they were permitted to enter the Promised Land (Josh 24:1-28). Infidelity to this covenant blighted the nation's prospects and growth during the time of the Judges (Jdg_2:11-15; Jdg_10:6, Jdg_10:10, Jdg_10:13; 1Sa_12:10).

It was the cause of prolific and ever-increasing evil, civic and moral, from Solomon's day to the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Many of the kings of the divided kingdom apostatized, leading the people, as in the case of Rehoboam, into the grossest forms of idolatry and immorality (1Ki_14:22-24; 2Ch_12:1).

Conspicuous examples of such royal apostasy are Jeroboam (1Ki_12:28-32); Ahab (1Ki_16:30-33); Ahaziah (1Ki_22:51-53); Jehoram (2Ch_21:6, 2Ch_21:10, 2Ch_21:12-15); Ahaz (2Ch_28:1-4); Manasseh (2Ch_33:1-9); Amen (2Ch_33:22). See IDOLATRY. Prophecy originated as a Divine and imperative protest against this historic tendency to defection from the religion of Yahweh.

In classical Greek, apostasy signified revolt from a military commander. In the roman catholic church it denotes abandonment of religious orders; renunciation of ecclesiastical authority; defection from the faith. The persecutions of the early Christian centuries forced many to deny Christian discipleship and to signify their apostasy by offering incense to a heathen deity or blaspheming the name of Christ. The emperor Julian, who probably never vitally embraced the Christian faith, is known in history as “the Apostate,” having renounced Christianity for paganism soon after his accession to the throne.

An apostate's defection from the faith may be intellectual, as in the case of Ernst Haeckel, who, because of his materialistic philosophy, publicly and formally renounced Christianity and the church; or it may be moral and spiritual, as with Judas, who for filthy lucre's sake basely betrayed his Lord. See exhaustive articles on “Apostasy” in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

"Let people label themselves:? Gee. Sound nice. Then again so does "give peace a chance" or "make love, not war" or some other wishful phrase we can come up with. In the real world, it doesnt quite fly.

Have I ever referred to an apostate as such, in direct conversation with him? Of course not. I can still disagree while being respectful in speaking to him/her. But when they tell me they no longer believe in Apostolic doctrine, or even start fighting and opposing Apostolic doctrine, then its clear to me what they are.

The the idea of not "labeling" people is wishy-washy. The concept of apostasy is biblical. Paul spoke on it, as did other NT writers. Thus there must be , and are, people who fit that description of being apostates. You said you prefer for people to label themselves? Who is going to label himself as an apostate? No one. So does that mean we shouldn't use the word? Of course not.

Actually there are sites devoted to just such things. The Internet Infidels has an e-mail list group called "Apostates." I won't link to those things here, but they exist and exist extensively.

Those who would resist the label "apostate" obviously don't feel that they have left the faith. For someone to harshly label them as such is not only unkind, but is probably technically inaccurate as well. Prax expounded upon that nicely above.

Originally Posted by TRFrance

And Jesus lets us know we'll know a tree by its fruit. So to somehow not recognize some one as an apostate. Go back to what I said earlier. I'm not saying we have to addres them as such, but to not recognize that they have departed from sound doctrine is foolish and unbiblical.

Jesus himself said dont cast your pearls before swine. Obviously he's not talking about livestock here - the swine is certain kinds of people. So obviously he's expecting us to use some kind of judgment to determine that a person would fall in this category as being what He called "swine". On various messge boards, I've come to recognize "swine" often, and make sure not to cast my pearls before them. Now do I call them swine? of course not. But God expects us to use the basic biblical discernment to be able to recognize such "swine", or as the case may be, to recognize apostates. That's not being "judgmental" , as some might claim. Jesus himself said we should judge with "righteous judgment" (Jn 7:24) .

On the Internet it is necessary, even essential to discern when you're going to be wasting your time. And "casting pearls before swine" or as others have called it, "Feeding the Animals" is a time waster. So we move on. No problem. Just remember that Jesus Himself loved those "swine" enough to die for them.

Also, please remember that many people have been hurt by their religious encounters. One person may come out swinging, but given a moment to vent they will often end up sounding pretty reasonable. You might even make a friend.

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally Posted by StMark

Well just know this,there's a certain forum that thinks we are all a bunch of Apostates(w/t exception of a few members here)

Let's not get into names now

C'mon Mark, give us names. The names of the forum or forums. The names of the members who are and aren't apostates. You can do it.

PM them to me if'n you is scairt.

[Hoovie]

I met someone the other day who said he was apostate AND vigourously objected when I questioned the fact.

He also said God's gifts are without repentance and proceeded to "prophesy" and "preach" to me for over an hour!

[Dora]

Thanks, people, for the verbose dissertation defining "Apostate."

Good grief!

YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN!