PAW Is Crumbling!!!Bishop Noel Jones is leaving too!

[Steve Epley]

Adino unless Braizer and Ellis has changed they believe the new birth of water & Spirit but Braizer for years has taught unconditional eternal security they(the PAW) was battling it out even in the 80's. Bishop McMurray (the church Noel Jones pastors) both taught his heresy. Bishops P. Scott, M. Golder, J. Tyson and others wrote articles against it. The PAW was too lax in dealing with this damnable heresy and it infected the movement.

[ChicagoPastor]

Brazier is on TV every week in Chicago. And every show ends with them baptizing dozens of people in Jesus name....they're ALWAYS baptizing people. He preaches Acts 2:38 strong......Elder Epley is right, he also preaches eternal security.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Adino

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

This is very interesting...

Originally Posted by Barb

This is very interesting...

Barb,

You are too nice... "interesting"... I usually find anything Adino writes as "odd" but I guess interesting would be appropriate.

J/K Adino a little

[Steve Epley]

I would think Braizer-Ellis-Jones would find some difficuties among their congregations if they changed on their veiw of salvation. They may change but it will be slow. Both McMurray & Ellis' father were strong doctrinal preachers when it came to Acts 2:38 and the Oneness of God. McMurray seemed to have some personal problems wherein the unconditional eternal security doctrine might have been convenient.

[Adino]

How do you guys interpret this statement from Braizer's website?

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

How do you guys interpret this statement from Braizer's website?

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

lol...it's not important how "you guys" interpret it...what is important is how does HE interpret it

[Adino]

lol...it's not important how "you guys" interpret it...what is important is how does HE interpret it

Which is why I've contacted his church and am awaiting a response. I would still like to know how others interpret this statement.

If he does not intend to teach that one is born again at the moment one receives Christ into one's heart then he might want to change the wording on his site so he doesn't give the wrong impression that he is wanting to become more inclusive of others in the protestant world.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Which is why I've contacted his church and am awaiting a response. I would still like to know how others interpret this statement.

If he does not intend to teach that one is born again at the moment one receives Christ into one's heart then he might want to change the wording on his site so he doesn't give the wrong impression that he is wanting to become more inclusive of others in the protestant world.

Well like generic all inclusive statements on the Godhead of Jakes and others, this seems to be the trend. High profile "ministries" tend to hide or compromise what they believe for the sake of attracting more visitors who might otherwise NOT go to a Oneness church or Trinitarian church etc etc....In Pentecostal circles, Trinitarian and OP try to accept both sides. This may be one of those cases

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan

Please post the link where you found that on his site?

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.
http://www.apostolicchurchofgod.net/aboutus_wha.html