Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Originally Posted by mizpeh
Dan, your response to my question is "oh boy."

MOW says we are justified by faith and saved. Sabellius says we are justified by faith and not yet saved. Which is it? Is justification the same as salvation?

Dan, what do you say? or even better what do you think the Bible says?

Where do we find, in the scriptures of course, that Justification is the "experience of salvation" (Bernardian view)?

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

The problem with a "graded/progressive" 3 step plan is that it disqualifies the vast majority of Christians who have EVER lived including those who have been martyred for Him without exception.

It "forces" God to reject, revoke and seemingly disavow a person's relationship with Him for decades or whatever length of time they walked with Him on a technicality.

There are those who still hold to a varied view of Seymour's Light Doctrine.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Leading scholars?? ... or do you mean the one's you subscribe to ... Seagraves holds a position somewhat similar to most Protestant theologians

I was just being kind. I do subscribe to anyone.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Originally Posted by Sabellius

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

Was Abraham justified and yet his sin(s) remained?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

I too agree with you, Matt ..

they, justification and remission, must work together simultaneously... it only makes sense ... if I were a water and spirit adherent ... the only view that makes sense to me is the Epleyian view ....

when one is declared righteous your penalty is cleared ... no two ways about it ...

I know some will respond with a clever analogy about paperwork that needs to filled out ...or something along the lines ... but that's just fluff....

of course, I believe this happens at the point of faith and subsequent repentance ...

but you already know that's what makes me a PCIer and you an EPLYIAN PAJCer

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I too agree with you, Matt ..

they, justification and remission, must work together simultaneously... it only makes sense ... if I were a water and spirit adherent ... the only view that makes sense to me is the Epleyian view ....

when one is declared righteous your penalty is cleared ... no two ways about it ...

I know some will respond with a clever analogy about paperwork that needs to filled out ...or something along the lines ... but that's just fluff....

of course, I believe this happens at the point of faith and subsequent repentance ...

but you already know that's what makes me a PCIer and you an EPLYIAN PAJCer

I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by rrford

I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not interested in casting people to eternal destruction or damnation,but I do feel it is God's will for all people to repent , be baptized in Jesus Name and be Spirit filled.

That's what I believe I try to add to people's faith like Paul in Acts 19.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

Good question. Have an opinion?