Reading Fudge's Book Again

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I hold a PCI view, BD. Hence, the Church are those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.... I along w/ other Apostolics, like Howard Goss, believe the Baptists and other believers will be saved. oloroid

The Church is not defined by your parameters.

Faith is the means by which we are saved. The new birth is what saves, brings us into the body of Christ, and makes us children of God.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Faith is the means by which we are saved. The new birth is what saves, brings us into the body of Christ, and makes us children of God.

We have discussed aspects of the New Birth ... throughout this forum ... including justification, remission, baptism, and pneumotology ... the when and how of salvation and New Birth.

We can discuss New Birth again in another thread if you like ... this thread has taken an interesting turn concerning "Remnant History" as presented by the Water and Spirit Oneness crowd ... I think we should remain on this rather than get into something we've discussed to death.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

We have discussed aspects of the New Birth ... throughout this forum ... including justification, remission, baptism, and pneumotology ... the when and how of salvation and New Birth.

We can discuss New Birth again in another thread if you like ... this thread has taken an interesting turn concerning "Remnant History" as presented by the Water and Spirit Oneness crowd ... I think we should remain on this rather than get into something we've discussed to death.

No worries, Dan. It was just a comment. Some other time.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I had heard that story but I don't remember that it involved a GC. Such a find is incredible and would certainly attract a lot of attention. The activities of that group from the 1960's right up through today would make fascinating and encouraging news.

Who are they? Where are they? Any names? Places? Dates? Documents? Sounds a lot like the "2 million Urshanites in the Soviet Union." As the Iron Curtain came down I met with Russian Pentecostals. For the most part they would just stare at you with unbelief when you asked them about Oneness believers and Jesus Name baptism. They had never heard of such a doctrine.

I don't want to sound like I'm being cruel toward the hopes of others; but put yourself in my shoes- and the shoes of thousands of others. We had hope for just this sort of thing. We've got blank pages in our books and sermon materials waiting to be filled in with this news. But if we're going to stake our reputations and ministries on something, we want a little proof.

That proof will put the excited edge into our voices. We need a little certainty to go on to be persuasive toward our critics. Try presenting a paper based upon the conclusions of "After the Way Called Heresy" and "Ancient Champions of Oneness" in an academic setting. Such writings are not even received well in Oneness Symposiums.

The only 'proof' I have is my memory, and that is faulty at times, I'm sure. And I agree, written proof would be good. I wonder if the FMB has a record of this?

I remember the Russian Pentecostals, and I don't think at the time it was mentioned too much about them being oneness, just spirit filled. Brother Urshan was wanting to help them in a big way.

The testimony of the Chinese man was awesome. He was very strong in the Apostolic message.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

We have discussed aspects of the New Birth ... throughout this forum ... including justification, remission, baptism, and pneumotology ... the when and how of salvation and New Birth.

We can discuss New Birth again in another thread if you like ... this thread has taken an interesting turn concerning "Remnant History" as presented by the Water and Spirit Oneness crowd ... I think we should remain on this rather than get into something we've discussed to death.

Yeah really. When did D.A. become the "keep-it-on-topic-thread-police?"

But, getting after my friend Dan would soon lead me off topic as well. So... I found Thomas Fudge's book is available online at this link. I don't know if that's been mentioned before; sorry if I'm duplicating some else's effort. It's a "preview" with about 2/3 of the book missing. I guess Google swallows things up just like the "business administrators in Hazelwood."

I've read the book once, but I noticed the very first sentence anew. It breaks down this discussion rather nicely.

"Oneness theology can neither be said to have existed throughout ecclesiastical history in an unbroken line of continuity ..."

Here he argues against the Chalfants, Weissers and Arnolds.

" ... nor can it be regarded as having risen in a religious vacuum in the second decade of the twentieth century."

And here he argues against those who would say Oneness and Jesus Name theology was simply "made up" only about 100 years ago.

I agree that we should be reaching for a more complex understanding than the two extremes. When someone criticizes Oneness theology like these folks do,

"'Oneness' Pentecostalism got underway in 1913 when somebody at a camp-meeting received the 'revelation' that "the [singular!] name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" of Matthew 28:19 is 'Jesus'. This revelation has left Bible-readers asking ever since, 'Who's on first?'"

We should not respond with,

"EUROPEAN TRINITARIANISM fought MONOTHEISM. NOTE: Catholic invented Trinitarianism caused more mass deaths; over 68,000,000-than any other thing. The magic in numeral three (3) of the TRINITY-has created havoc, hysteria, and divisions that led to millions of deaths.

CATHARI--were people of the True Christian Church in different organizations. They had Gothic Bibles. (See: C. F. Potter, p. 174) UPPER ROOM doctrine shined throughout DARK AGES. The individualistic makeup-yet-doctrinal like-ness-of the Cathari organizations we mention, together with the courage of their refusal to conform to the norms of corrupt Catholicism, led them in the biblical way to maintain Acts 2:38 ecclesiology. Beyond the reach of Rome in outlying places such as Saxony, Frisia (Netherlands), Languedoc, etc., there were whole organizations of Acts two Christians. "

Baptism "into Christ," "in the name of Christ" and "in Jesus name" did occur quite regularly thoughout history. For example the Old Irish Celtic Church was known to baptize "in Jesus name;" but they were thoroughly Trinitarian in their doctrine. It would be inaccurate to describe them as "Oneness Pentecostals" simply because they baptized in Jesus name.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sarah

The only 'proof' I have is my memory, and that is faulty at times, I'm sure. And I agree, written proof would be good. I wonder if the FMB has a record of this?

I remember the Russian Pentecostals, and I don't think at the time it was mentioned too much about them being oneness, just spirit filled. Brother Urshan was wanting to help them in a big way.

The testimony of the Chinese man was awesome. He was very strong in the Apostolic message.

You probably are remembering the "Siberian Seven." This was a group of Trinitarian Pentecostals who had sought asylum in the US Embassy in Moscow. The UPC did spend a great deal of effort and funds on securing their release and helping them get established in America. I thought that it was a very generous thing that NA Urshan did, especially since the seven weren't Oneness in doctrine. The UPC was just trying to help some folks out. Urshan and others were criticised for that, which I thought was unfair.

It was about this time that reports of "2 million Urshanites" began to spring up. NA Urshan's father had been able to briefly evangelize in Russia just after the First World War. It was thought that there must be quite a number of disciples that had grown from that. One Russian Pentecostal that I met back in the 1980's (we had helped a family get out and get established in the US) said that the Oneness people had "the smallest churches" in Russia. He was rather sadly mesmerized by Benny Hinn and Co. In fact, I think he was the first person to point out Hinn to me. It's kind of funny; here he was in Soviet Communism and watching TBN while in the states I'm like, "Benny who...?"

That family went through a painful tug of war between UPC people who just wanted to help and UPC people who wanted to control them. At one point we were instructed by a person holding a nationally elected position to "put them in a motel without a telephone" so they would not be in contact with Trinitarians. It was like, "We paid for these Russians, they're our Russians and we don't want to lose them like we lost the Siberian Seven..." I'm certain they meant well, but c'mon.

The advice about the motel room was of course ridiculous. I don't think there's even such a thing as a motel without a telephone in the United States. I put them up in an apartment of their own and had the utilities and telephone turned on immediately. At their request we even got them a TV. I thought that it would be a useful language tool.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Adino

If you read my earlier post you might have seen that I was raised under the late Rev. Marvin M. Arnold. Without looking at your citings I would guess some may have come from his works. Like I said before, he failed to find a single witness who taught the soteriological water/spirit position as is taught by so many in Oneness Pentecostalism today. If you can succeed where he failed I would very much impressed.

I wrote to Rev. Chalfant about this issue as well. He could not produce a single witness either.

Some of the groups were identified by Bro's Chalfant and Weisser. I believe this was after Bro. Arnold. But at least a couple of the groups are confirmed to have held a Jesus name waterbaptism formula, and a belief in the Spirit with external signs. The Paulicians are one of the most notable groups.... but regardless of the soteriology, do you reject their findings of the oneness groups throughout history? For instance, in 1441, the Council of Florence convened to denounce "Sabellianism". Sabellianism started with the teaching of Sabellius around 200AD. It is very interesting that there were still "Sabellians" 1200 years later... What is your view of church history? Where was the true church between the years of 500AD and 1500AD? Was it the Roman Catholics? Greek Orthadox? If not, then who was it?

I realize you are saying that link (http://www.geocities.com/beapostolic/history2.html) is bunk... I agree... I just want to point out a few really important things about it:

1.

AD 1774, On Aug. 6, ANN LEE imported tongues speaking into the US. Tongues speaking spread. (E. D. Andrews, pp. 15-19)

Ann Lee taught that everyone had a little "Christ Spirit" in them and that 2 people would have the full "Christ Spirit" in them, one male (Jesus) and one female (her)...

to even claim her group are Christians is a massive stretch...

2.

Arius and ARIANISM appeared. ARIUS denied the Trinity idea by ca. AD 300. (J. N. Blunt, P. 144; Bernstein & Green, pp. 137,155) Most Arians immersed in the Name-Jesus Christ. By AD 800 Arianism, in Europe, was close to Jesus Name monotheism. (See: J. Murray, p. 293, H. Daniel Rops, p. 110; Z. Oldenbourg, p. 41).

Arius preached that Jesus wasn't diety at all, but was the "first created thing" and bestowed all of God's power...

3. There are WAY too many pot shots taken at Catholics... there is no excuse for noting every error the Catholic Church made in something about the "true history of the apostolic church"... No reason to say Constantine was like Hitler... No reason to say tons of things said... They have nothing to do with the topic...

and... honestly... If anyone ever believed the guy who wrote that... it makes me wonder how in tune with God they really were, and I take saying something like that very, very seriously... but the things he says are a joke and incorrect on such a massive level that you would have to be completely uneducated in the history of Christianity and movements somewhat related to Christianity and then after you hear what he says refuse to actually look anything up yourself in any outside sources (or even look up his sources) to even believe what he said...

How in the world could these "great men of God" from so long ago get duped so badly to even believe this drivel for a second? It doesn't make sense to me...

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Some of the groups were identified by Bro's Chalfant and Weisser. I believe this was after Bro. Arnold. But at least a couple of the groups are confirmed to have held a Jesus name waterbaptism formula, and a belief in the Spirit with external signs. The Paulicians are one of the most notable groups.... but regardless of the soteriology, do you reject their findings of the oneness groups throughout history? For instance, in 1441, the Council of Florence convened to denounce "Sabellianism". Sabellianism started with the teaching of Sabellius around 200AD. It is very interesting that there were still "Sabellians" 1200 years later... What is your view of church history? Where was the true church between the years of 500AD and 1500AD? Was it the Roman Catholics? Greek Orthadox? If not, then who was it?

don't you have to define what "a true church" is? I mean... the church isn't a denomination... it isn't the followers of a certain creed... the church is simply the believers world-wide...

To assume there were no believers (no matter how dark and godless the world may seem) is folly IMO... But to think we can pick out groups who supposedly preached exactly what we do to try and prove we are right is just as full of folly...

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Some of the groups were identified by Bro's Chalfant and Weisser. I believe this was after Bro. Arnold. But at least a couple of the groups are confirmed to have held a Jesus name waterbaptism formula, and a belief in the Spirit with external signs. The Paulicians are one of the most notable groups.... but regardless of the soteriology, do you reject their findings of the oneness groups throughout history? For instance, in 1441, the Council of Florence convened to denounce "Sabellianism". Sabellianism started with the teaching of Sabellius around 200AD. It is very interesting that there were still "Sabellians" 1200 years later... What is your view of church history? Where was the true church between the years of 500AD and 1500AD? Was it the Roman Catholics? Greek Orthadox? If not, then who was it?

I would say any finding they made that wasn't seperately made by other people and extremely well-documented should be thrown out just based upon the complete and utter falicy of some of the statements they made...

That whole document is propoganda-filled drivel that wouldn't hold up in a 3rd grade classroom, and never should have gotten any response other than laughter by anyone who had any credibility as a scholar...