Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

MBlume

I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

I have never.....said the body does not die. If I have post the quote. Like Esaias pointed out we believe not JUST THE BODY DIES but the PERSON DIES.

You believe ONLY the body dies.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

when Rachel died in Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...
In this scripture (soul) seems to carry a different definition than what some of you say it means, (body and spirit). It seems soul is defined here simply as her spirit. This is the definition used when people say the soul does not die. And others say when the body dies the soul dies. I think the scripture speaks of a soul as the individual (body and spirit) and as in this case speaks of the soul as the spirit only.

Literally, as her nephesh was going. Her life was departing. The word "soul" (nephesh, or psyche) has a range of meanings and uses. To say your life passed before eyes, does it mean a disembodied spirit traveled across your vision? Of course not, it's an idiom, or euphemism. If you lose your life, did a disembodied spirit get misplaced? Of course not. If your life departs, did it (your "life") literally move outside your body and go somewhere? Or did you simply die? That is, the condition or quality of being alive is said to have "departed", meaning it is no longer the case. If you "lost an opportunity" the opportunity is not a "thing" that literally got misplaced, it means the quality or condition of being opportune or fortuitous has ceased, is no longer the case.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have never.....said the body does not die. If I have post the quote. Like Esaias pointed out we believe not JUST THE BODY DIES but the PERSON DIES.

You believe ONLY the body dies.

You never said once the body dies as far as I have read, until this post. Sorry for the confusion, but you kept avoiding saying the body dies, which made me think you denied that is the issue discussed in every case.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by peter83

αmen! Do you know ,now for example ,when we die we go up? i mean can you explain me that brother?

Yes! Jesus took the saints in sheol/hades up to heaven, which is why we read that many of the saints that were dead were seen walking Jerusalem before they ascended. Heaven was sprinkled with blood for these and all of us, when Jesus also made atonement for us. Without atonement no one could enter heaven. He had to ascend and make atonement.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes! Jesus took the saints in sheol/hades up to heaven, which is why we read that many of the saints that were dead were seen walking Jerusalem before they ascended. Heaven was sprinkled with blood for these and all of us, when Jesus also made atonement for us. Without atonement no one could enter heaven. He had to ascend and make atonement.

So when Jesus took those saints up to Heaven who had been alive the whole time in Sheol was it a partial resurrection where only some of them were resurrected?

It seems like King David was "left behind".

Acts 2:34

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Was David in sin? Did he die lost? Why didn't he get to leaves Hades and go to Heaven with Jesus?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes! Jesus took the saints in sheol/hades up to heaven, which is why we read that many of the saints that were dead were seen walking Jerusalem before they ascended. Heaven was sprinkled with blood for these and all of us, when Jesus also made atonement for us. Without atonement no one could enter heaven. He had to ascend and make atonement.

That would mean they RESURRECTED and at best only proves resurrection. It would not prove any intermediate conscious state.

But if they were, in fact, resurrected to immortality, then that creates numerous additional problems. How is it they received immortality in resurrection PRIOR TO THE JUDGMENT? How did they receive resurrection into immortality PRIOR to Jesus' Ascension? Did they ascend before Jesus did? After His Ascension? Where does it say they ascended at all? As Michael pointed it, you say they ascended, yet a month later Peter says David is not yet ascended. So why was David left behind? Why were only some raised, and not all? Why did Paul say the dead would rise first and the living saints would meet them in resurrection? Yet you have resurrected (and ascended!) dead saints before Pentecost?

Why is there NOTHING elsewhere mentioned about these glorified resurrected saints? Paul seems utterly oblivious to their existence, as he repeatedly lays out his resurrection doctrine. In 1 Cor 15 he gives an outline that simply doesn't allow for a small batch of resurrected saints that supposedly rose at the same time as Jesus.

Meanwhile, here's this:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Later, I will put my thoughts into order, but for now, based on my research, I have concluded the following:

1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
2. John 3:13 was written to combat those same errors
3. Matt 27:51-53 itself was written to combat the Hymenaean and Thessalonian error
4. The errors mentioned in 1 are that the resurrection had either already happened, or had already commenced.
5. The errors mentioned in 1 were due to reports circulating among certain Jews concerning the event described in Matt 27:51-53
6. Matt wrote a description of the event using particular language in order to both address the error that had developed as well as to CORRECT the error that had developed
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

There are a few other considerations and points I intend to make as well, but those are the major ones. I also intend to demonstrate the wherefore's and why's of each point. I'm just a bit busy today and occupied with another subject.

[Esaias]

And apparently I forgot to update that post that I quoted. Mea culpa.

As for them being part of the first fruits, that is at odds with Paul's clear statement that Christ is the first fruits (plural). That means Christ personally and individually fulfills the typology of the first fruits, specifically the waving of the omer. There is simply no room in Paul's theology for first fruits of the resurrection being "Christ plus a bunch of unknown and unnamed guys."

[Esaias]

But, all that is a side issue, a red herring. The righteous dead being taken from Abraham's Lap up to heaven by Jesus is a doctrine maintained in support of "saints go straight to heaven with full consciousness when they die." Yet now it is asserted to be part of an early batch of RESURRECTED AND ASCENDED SAINTS? So either the two are completely independent subjects, or else they both have to do with resurrection, not conscious intermediate disembodied existence in heaven or elsewhere.

In other words, Matthew 27:52-53 proves nothing about a conscious intermediate after-death state.

[Amanah]

Only God is immortal, Christians have immortality as an inheritance, and the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our Inheritance.

1 Timothy 6:16 [God] who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen
1 Corinthians 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
2 Timothy 1:10 But it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Ephesians 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

[Amanah]

Mankind lost access to the tree of life because of Sin

Genesis 3:22-24 ESV
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

Mankind regains access to the Tree of Life in Revelation 22