1000 year reign

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok no one is against THAT. Yes the devil is bound today to a certain extent. I think my posts agree with that.

That is my whole point. You spoke as though any reference to binding must mean the devil has no power at all today. But now that you realize BINDING of the devil does not mean ALL POWER of the devil is removed, you are seeing what I am trying to say about Rev 20. Rev 20's binding does not mean the devil has NO POWER during that time.

This "binding" issue is just a part of the entire doctrine of 1000 year reign. It should not be seen as the WHOLE ISSUE.

I never said it was. But I am using that point because Bro Epley and Jimmy Davis and so many others, including yourself, have said that this BINDING in Rev 20 means satan has no power at all left. Bro Epley always retorted, "If the devil is bound, then why is there crime?" But you have proved that binding the devil does not always mean the devil has no power at all, because you agree the devil is BOUND NOW "to a certain degree".

My whole argument has been that the devil is bound NOW, and we are in the days of Rev 20. Everytime I would say that, Bro Epley and others would say that is impossible, because the devil still can do things now, AS THOUGH BONDAGE OF THE DEVIL MEANS THE DEVIL HAS NO POWER LEFT. So I was focusing us all on the fact that bondage of the devil does not mean he is left with no power.

And for months I always responded saying that Rev 20 details the only form of BONDAGE the devil is experiencing. He is bound to not be able to deceive the nations into gathering them together against the holy city.

After months of saying this, I think I am finally able to let you folks understand why I have been saying this for so long. You are FINALLY starting to realize my point. (Took long enough! heh heh)

As you state the devil IS BOUND NOW, but only to a certain degree, Rev 20 also says the devil is bound to a CERTAIN DEGREE: He is ONLY SAID TO be loosed to gather the nations together against the church. (NOW READ THIS NEXT PART CLOSELY) HE IS NOT SAID TO BE LOOSED A LITTLE SEASON TO START UP DRUG LORDS AGAIN, TO CAUSE MURDER, TO CAUSE CRIME, TO CAUSE RAPE, ETC. That is because he was only bound in ONE AREA... to not be able to gather the nations AGAINST THE HOLY CITY, which I claim is the church.

CAN YOU SEE THIS POINT YET?

When satan is in the pit he is DOING NOTHING. Its when he comes out THEN he goes out to do his work.

Who says he is doing nothing in the pit??? Read above: He is only said to be loosed to gather nations against the church, as though that was the thing he could never do during the binding.

Jesus Christ has power over all things in Heaven and on Earth right now. But that does not mean he is currently exercising that power over the nations.

WHAT??? Give me scripture that states this expressly.

He most certainly is exercising that power. What is the sense of having it but not exercising it? He lifts kings up and tears them down at his will. But he also allows things to occur in order for His will to be done. And he is working in all of this in lieu of his Church as well. he allows things to occur to exercise His church down here in the affairs of tribulation, etc.

It seems in this life his focus is on building up the CHURCH AS HIS KINGDOM. As his holy nation.

I agree. But He does deal in national affairs. I think Hitler's demise was part of His direct work, for example.

He can and does do things in the Earth as he sees fit. He can cause nations to be blessed or he can cast lightning bolts of judgment upon them.

RIGHT! So He DOES exercise his influence.

Yet the Apostle Paul who probably knew the plan of God better than we do today still said satan was the god of this world.

RIGHT! Satan was STILL BOUND, though. As you admitted. But THAT BINDING is only to a degree.

4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor. 4:4

To those who may think Jesus is right now at this present reigning over the nations PLEASE CONSIDER THIS.

15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev. 11:15-18

Has the seventh angel sounded? When it sounds THEN the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord!

Yes the seventh angel has sounded. Partial preterism teaches all of Rev is fulfilled up to chapter 20.

We are in the days of the Lord's kingdom, like a mountain, STILL SPREADING out across the earth as the church continues to grow, in Daniel 2. There has never been a world power since Rome. There never will be one EXCEPT THE CHURCH. When the church has spread across the earth, the rapture will occur, but not before an attack of the devil in Rev 20 as he gathers the nations against the church.

THEN according to verse 17 he TAKES TO HIM HIS POWER AND REIGNS.

If he is already reigning why will he take to him his power and reign?

This was fulfilled.

Yet at his coming (seventh trumpet) there will come a fullblown manifestation of the things we now teach and believe are true.

18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

You are taking passages that DO NOT EXPRESSLY STATE THESE THINGS OCCUR in the order your prophecy teachings demand. YOU ARE FITTING THEM TOGETHER THIS WAY, but these scriptures do not expressly state, "The glory that shall follow is speaking about the time after the church age when a millennium begins." They only state there is a glory to be revealed in us, but they do not say anything about a 1000 year reign.

Can you not see that your references outside of Revelation 20 do not state expressly what you claim. They are not said to fit precisely where you claim they do? You ASSUME that is when the glory shall be revealed. You ASSUME the millennium is the point in time when that glory is revealed. But Paul never said that. He just said glory will be revealed.

Verse 23 puts this manifestation of the sons of God to deliver the groaning creation in context. AT THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES.......THE SECOND COMING.

I agree! BUT NOTHING IS SAID ABOUT A MILLENNIUM THERE. I propose you are wrong about inserting a millennium there, because the millennium represents the church age. And when the resurrection occurs and our bodies are redeemed, the WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT OCCURS, and we enter into eternity future where we rule forevermore in glorified bodies, without a millennium afterwards.

Then we will deliver groaning creation. It will be set free also into the glorious liberty of the sons of God!

I agree! But where does Paul speak of 1000 years there?

If there is no kingdom on this Earth from the time of the adoption of our bodies WHAT GROANING CREATION will we set free?

Creation will be set free! But Paul said nothing about a 1000 years then. I already said, creation will be set free, NO MORE DEATH WILL OCCUR, since 1 Cor 15 says death is destroyed when Jesus returns. Your doctrine CONTRADICTS THAT since it teaches death still exists after Jesus returns during the millennium.

Paul makes this sound glorious! Some today make us feel like we believe a childs fairy tale when we teach it.

See? More misrepresentations! I believe all of this! Except I DO NOT BELIEVE A MILLENNIUM IS INVOLVED ANYWHERE except as symbolic of the church age NOW. OTHERWISE THERE IS A CONTRADICTION WITH OTHER SCRIPTURES.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think everyone is missing the aspect I am struggling to point us towards.

1) Did Jesus spoile the devil? Yes or no.

2) Did Jesus say you cannot do that unless you first bind him? Yes or no.

3) Does this mean Jesus bound the devil? Yes or no.

I hope that makes it clearer.

Yes, I agree. I understand what you are saying since you believe that the 1000 year reign is symbolic of the church age. That is what I am studying on.

You see that plainly in your studies, but when I read about the bottomless pit in Revelation it then confuses me.

Therefore - lol - all the ignorant questions until I arrive at a place of order in my thinking on the issue. I have to see it for myself.

I'm thanking you again for your patience. I can imagine how frustrating that can be for you. lol I hope you allow us to keep asking. I think a little light has to come on at some point, but I don't want to reach for something just to satisfy the discussion. I want to feel it and know it in my spirit.

I want to read it and feel the Lord confirm that to me. I keep... Pressing on.....

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Reading my post today at 3:22 pm would help to start.

Can you reconcile the same scripture:

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

With this one:

4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor. 4:4

Sometimes things happen that are previews of even bigger things yet to come.

Jesus defeated the prince of this world. He was put to death. End of story. The devil is happy. NOT! Three days later Jesus raised himself from the dead!
In doing this he broke the devils hold on death.

14: Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14

This was THE BEGINNING OF THE END for satan. His casting out was certain BY FAITH but it still is being accomplished in full measure by the obedience of the Saints.

In a measure he was cast out (defeated) in John 12. He will suffer further loss when he is cast down from Heaven in Rev. 12. He will suffer further loss than that when he is shut up in the pit for 1000 years in Rev. 20. He will suffer the ultimate defeat (casting out) when he is cast into the lake of fire.

Thank you for your response.

It says in John 12 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Rev 12

The pit for 1000 years

Lake of Fire

He is cast and cast and cast....

I need to study a little more on this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The problem is in what way do these scriptures REPRESENT the Church age?

I see you still are not answering my points that show how your teaching contradicts other scriptures. I still await your direct response to those direct contradictions I claim you cause.

1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The cross is the work that bound the devil. Jesus said you cannot spoil anyone until you first bind them. So if he spoiled the devil, then he already bound him THROUGH THE CROSS.

The thousand years represent the church age, seeing THOUSAND IS A COMMON BIBLICAL TERM TO SIGNIFY MANY MANY MANY (Psalm 50:10; Deut 7:9; Rev 5:11). (Actually the thousand years simply means a VERY LONG TIME. The church age technically ends after the devil is loosed and fire comes down to destroy the nations he gathers against the church.

This cannot refer to a time after the church age, for then it CONTRADICTS STATEMENTS THE REST OF THE BIBLE MAKES. Nobody responded to my list of contradictions in millennialism yet though.

3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The deception noted above is not explained until we read FURTHER IN THE CHAPTER.

When we read on (I have said this so many times already and have to repeat it again and again and again. Please folks, READ MY WORDS so I do not have to repeat them all the time) and come to verse 8 we see the SPECIFIC NATURE OF THE DECEPTION....

Rev 20:8 KJV And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE DECEPTION. Everyone stops read at verse 3 and ASSUMES it is deception for crime, drugs, rape and murder, etc.

Just as Rev 20 says nothing about deception to cause murder, rape, incest, drug addiction, etc., you and I both agree the devil is bound NOW to a certain degree.

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is the church NOW. We are already kings and priests by the same blood that washed our sins away.

Rev 1:5-6 KJV And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

We are ALREADY MADE KINGS AND PRIESTS.

Pressing On, let me interject a thought you, as well, and say this is where your dillemma is explained. Rev 20 is figurative of the CHURCH AGE. The reason we read we are ALREADY KINGS AND PRIESTS in Rev 1, and yet Rev 20 sounds like it is something in our future, is because Rev 20 is figurative of the church age NOW. Rev 1:1 says the visions of Revelation SIGNIFY (SYMBOLIZE) the message from God. Rev 1 states all of this was AT HAND 2000 years ago in John's day.

5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

the FIRST RESURRECTION IS THE RESURRECTION OF ROMANS 6. SPIRITUAL! We are ALIVE FROM THE DEAD when we got saved. We died SPIRITUALLY with Jesus when we were baptized INTO HIS DEATH. And we were risen to walk in newness of life so we could say we are alive from the dead NOW.

We are DEAD INDEED TO SIN and now are alive UNTO GOD through Christ Jesus.

Rom 6:11-13 KJV Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

THAT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION! IT IS COMMON SALVATION!

If there is a FIRST resurrection, then there is a SECOND ONE. THE SECOND RESURRECTION IS THE RAPTURE OF OUR BODIES!

6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev. 20:1-6

Rev 1:5-6 says we are ALREADY kings and priests. So Rev 20 makes no sense unless it is spiritually speaking of the church now, as people who experienced the first resurrection of salvation where we are made dead to sins and alive to God from the dead!

Michael you make a great issue out of the "binding" of satan. As if we should now be reigning over nations. Yet the other aspect of these verses that are supposed to REPRESENT the Church age shows Saints having their heads cut off because of their stand for Christ.

Brother, I only made a great issue out of the binding of satan because all you guys () always think the binding of satan in Rev 20 means the devil has no power over anything. So I proved to you this is incorrect by showing you the devil is already bound now. The binding of the devil YOU NOW SEE that is right now is the same binding in Rev 20, I am saying.

We are ruling right now. You are seemingly ever forcing yourself to propose a more PHYSICAL rulership, since you do not understand Jesus' words that said the Kingdom does not come with observation -- is not something you can see. You think it is a physical throne on earth where Jesus sits in a physical temple or palace. So, in turn, you force yourself to think the ruling of Rev 20 is not occurring now through the church spiritually.

If Saints are reigning over NATIONS how is it that the rulers of this world are beheading the Saints?

The mark of the beast is no more physical than the Father's name on the foreheads of the saints only two verses later, although in another chapter. We must remember the bible was never written in chapters when it was first written.

Beheading is something we must research in the rest of the bible for us to be able to understand the point, just as everything else in Revelation. John the Baptist was beheaded. BEHEADING is representative of any sort of capital punishment. Did you know that CAPITAL punishment is rooted with the word CAPITA? CAPITA speaks of the HEAD. The reason this term is used is because BEHEADING represents all forms of capital punishment. It is solely speaking of saints slain. We are teaching the days of the beast were in the first century. Saints were SLAIN LEFT AND RIGHT BY THE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS during Nero Caesar's rule. Secular writings of the day even called NERO "the BEAST." (See ANNALS OF TACITUS.)

The text of Rev 20 teaches the cross binds the devil. The saints Are given dominion and are seated with Christ over all names in this world and the world to come. NOTHING in EPH 2 says THIS RULERSHIP CHANGES IN THE WORLD TO COME.

And then there is mention of 1000 YEARS. 1000 years IS JUST A LONG TIME. Sometime after this LONG TIME begins, there is THEN a "beheading" of believers. I propose this is the persecution under Nero.

Not one nation has ever been ruled over by a Saint or Saints in the Church age.

So you say. However, Eph 1 says Christ is over every name that is named IN THIS WORLD, and the world to come. And we are seated with him.

But we are told in prophecy that we will REIGN WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

That is the church age.

A lot of difference. You name any Jesus name Christian that has ever lived for 1000 years in the Church age?

Please show me we are not to take this representatively as the church age. Show me that God does not own hill Number 1001, since we read he owns the cattle on a thousand hills.

Brethren, most of you are totally unaware of how we understand Rev 20, and you respond as though you know every detail of our beliefs and when you shoot them down, you shoot down things we do not even believe. I never said the thousand years must mean that some believers have lived 1000 years.

Now, when can you respond directly to my alleged contradictions between your view of Rev 20 and other scriptures?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You see that plainly in your studies, but when I read about the bottomless pit in Revelation it then confuses me.

Maybe you missed the point I made that said that if the bottomless pit refers to rendering the devil incapable of doing ANYTHING, why then do we read the devil ONLY deceives nations to gather them together against the church, and not that he ALSO causes rapes, and murder, and incest, and stealing, and drugs?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Maybe you missed the point I made that said that if the bottomless pit refers to rendering the devil incapable of doing ANYTHING, why then do we read the devil ONLY deceives nations to gather them together against the church, and not that he ALSO causes rapes, and murder, and incest, and stealing, and drugs?

My confusion is the whole verse in Rev. A key is given to open the pit. A bottomless pit, sealed and needing a key to open it sounds pretty bound and seems to be a determined time factor described.

[mfblume]

Bump for Michael the Disciple and Eliseus the Third time.

Originally Posted by mfblume

BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS AGAINST a 1000 YEAR MILLENNIUM AFTER THE CHURCH AGE.

1) 1000 year millennial teaching says that Christ BEGINS ruling over nations after He returns and resurrects the saints. BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THE END COMES when He comes in resurrection for the saints, and He CEASES to rule. He rules from the time He is seated on the right hand of God UNTIL all enemies are put under his feet WHEN HE RETURNS IN RESURRECTION. 1 Cor 15:23-26

2) 1000 year millennialism teaches satan is bound at the start of the millennium, after Jesus comes again, BUT THE BIBLE TEACHES JESUS SPOILED THE DEVIL ALREADY AT THE CROSS AND ALSO SAID YOU CANNOT SPOIL ONE UNTIL YOU FIRST BIND ONE.

3) 1000 year millennialism teaches Israel shall come to God OUTSIDE THE CHURCH, becuse the Churcch has already been raptured. This demands another plan of salvation for Israel. Paul said any other way of salvation is another gospel, and involves a curse. It is ACTS 2:38 from here on til the white throne judgment.

4) Millennialism teaches death occurs during the thousand years after Jesus comes. Paul plainly taught in 1 Cor 15 that when Christ comes, the end then occurs. And Death is destroyed. So there can be no deaths after Christ's coming.

5) Millennialism teaches the devil is bound so as to not influence the world in any manner at all, but Rev 20 states that he is bound to deceive the nations no more. And when you KEEP READING, and NOT STOP AT VERSE 3, you read THE NATURE OF THAT DECEPTION:

It is DECEPTION SOLELY TO GATHER THE NATIONS AGAINST THE CHURCH.


Partial preterism teaches THIS GATHERING AGAINST THE CHURCH is the last thing to occur before the rapture, when we are taken to the great white throne judgment. This is what we believe is the trouble the church will face.

After the great white throne judgment comes all the rulership and dominion and liberty of creation and revelation of glory in us that futurists put into the millennium.

But the contradiction in futurism, that does not exist in my view, is that Paul said DEATH IS GONE when Jesus returns for the church in resurrection and rapture of the church. But futurists have DEATH in the millennium! Futurists also think JESUS BEGINS TO REIGN after He comes back for the church, when Paul said HE CEASES TO RULE THEN.

1Co 15:23-26 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I see you still are not answering my points that show how your teaching contradicts other scriptures. I still await your direct response to those direct contradictions I claim you cause.



The cross is the work that bound the devil. Jesus said you cannot spoil anyone until you first bind them. So if he spoiled the devil, then he already bound him THROUGH THE CROSS.

The thousand years represent the church age, seeing THOUSAND IS A COMMON BIBLICAL TERM TO SIGNIFY MANY MANY MANY (Psalm 50:10; Deut 7:9; Rev 5:11). (Actually the thousand years simply means a VERY LONG TIME. The church age technically ends after the devil is loosed and fire comes down to destroy the nations he gathers against the church.

This cannot refer to a time after the church age, for then it CONTRADICTS STATEMENTS THE REST OF THE BIBLE MAKES. Nobody responded to my list of contradictions in millennialism yet though.



The deception noted above is not explained until we read FURTHER IN THE CHAPTER.

When we read on (I have said this so many times already and have to repeat it again and again and again. Please folks, READ MY WORDS so I do not have to repeat them all the time) and come to verse 8 we see the SPECIFIC NATURE OF THE DECEPTION....



THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE DECEPTION. Everyone stops read at verse 3 and ASSUMES it is deception for crime, drugs, rape and murder, etc.

Just as Rev 20 says nothing about deception to cause murder, rape, incest, drug addiction, etc., you and I both agree the devil is bound NOW to a certain degree.



This is the church NOW. We are already kings and priests by the same blood that washed our sins away.



We are ALREADY MADE KINGS AND PRIESTS.

Pressing On, let me interject a thought you, as well, and say this is where your dillemma is explained. Rev 20 is figurative of the CHURCH AGE. The reason we read we are ALREADY KINGS AND PRIESTS in Rev 1, and yet Rev 20 sounds like it is something in our future, is because Rev 20 is figurative of the church age NOW. Rev 1:1 says the visions of Revelation SIGNIFY (SYMBOLIZE) the message from God. Rev 1 states all of this was AT HAND 2000 years ago in John's day.



the FIRST RESURRECTION IS THE RESURRECTION OF ROMANS 6. SPIRITUAL! We are ALIVE FROM THE DEAD when we got saved. We died SPIRITUALLY with Jesus when we were baptized INTO HIS DEATH. And we were risen to walk in newness of life so we could say we are alive from the dead NOW.

We are DEAD INDEED TO SIN and now are alive UNTO GOD through Christ Jesus.



THAT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION! IT IS COMMON SALVATION!

If there is a FIRST resurrection, then there is a SECOND ONE. THE SECOND RESURRECTION IS THE RAPTURE OF OUR BODIES!



Rev 1:5-6 says we are ALREADY kings and priests. So Rev 20 makes no sense unless it is spiritually speaking of the church now, as people who experienced the first resurrection of salvation where we are made dead to sins and alive to God from the dead!



Brother, I only made a great issue out of the binding of satan because all you guys () always think the binding of satan in Rev 20 means the devil has no power over anything. So I proved to you this is incorrect by showing you the devil is already bound now. The binding of the devil YOU NOW SEE that is right now is the same binding in Rev 20, I am saying.

We are ruling right now. You are seemingly ever forcing yourself to propose a more PHYSICAL rulership, since you do not understand Jesus' words that said the Kingdom does not come with observation -- is not something you can see. You think it is a physical throne on earth where Jesus sits in a physical temple or palace. So, in turn, you force yourself to think the ruling of Rev 20 is not occurring now through the church spiritually.



The mark of the beast is no more physical than the Father's name on the foreheads of the saints only two verses later, although in another chapter. We must remember the bible was never written in chapters when it was first written.

Beheading is something we must research in the rest of the bible for us to be able to understand the point, just as everything else in Revelation. John the Baptist was beheaded. BEHEADING is representative of any sort of capital punishment. Did you know that CAPITAL punishment is rooted with the word CAPITA? CAPITA speaks of the HEAD. The reason this term is used is because BEHEADING represents all forms of capital punishment. It is solely speaking of saints slain. We are teaching the days of the beast were in the first century. Saints were SLAIN LEFT AND RIGHT BY THE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS during Nero Caesar's rule. Secular writings of the day even called NERO "the BEAST." (See ANNALS OF TACITUS.)

The text of Rev 20 teaches the cross binds the devil. The saints Are given dominion and are seated with Christ over all names in this world and the world to come. NOTHING in EPH 2 says THIS RULERSHIP CHANGES IN THE WORLD TO COME.

And then there is mention of 1000 YEARS. 1000 years IS JUST A LONG TIME. Sometime after this LONG TIME begins, there is THEN a "beheading" of believers. I propose this is the persecution under Nero.



So you say. However, Eph 1 says Christ is over every name that is named IN THIS WORLD, and the world to come. And we are seated with him.



That is the church age.



Please show me we are not to take this representatively as the church age. Show me that God does not own hill Number 1001, since we read he owns the cattle on a thousand hills.

Brethren, most of you are totally unaware of how we understand Rev 20, and you respond as though you know every detail of our beliefs and when you shoot them down, you shoot down things we do not even believe. I never said the thousand years must mean that some believers have lived 1000 years.

Now, when can you respond directly to my alleged contradictions between your view of Rev 20 and other scriptures?

Very good. Thank you. This is what I was looking for, but so many scriptures rolling around kept me from what I was trying to ask.

Pressing On, let me interject a thought you, as well, and say this is where your dillemma is explained. Rev 20 is figurative of the CHURCH AGE. The reason we read we are ALREADY KINGS AND PRIESTS in Rev 1, and yet Rev 20 sounds like it is something in our future, is because Rev 20 is figurative of the church age NOW. Rev 1:1 says the visions of Revelation SIGNIFY (SYMBOLIZE) the message from God. Rev 1 states all of this was AT HAND 2000 years ago in John's day.

Okay. No more questions right now. I have to stop and think about this one for a while and put it together. lol

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

My confusion is the whole verse in Rev. A key is given to open the pit. A bottomless pit, sealed and needing a key to open it sounds pretty bound and seems to be a determined time factor described.

But we must look at all the evidence. The nature of the binding is only revealed by what the devil is said to do after he is no longer bound.

Any bondage requires a "key," so to speak, in order to "loose" one from it.

And we can only determine what all the binding and the pit and the key means by looking at the overall picture at once. We cannot come to the scriptures with ANY preconceived notions. We must come open to be made to understand, by the scriptures themselves, what the scriptures are relating to us. This is VERY hard to do when we have been taught a long a certain line in a certain "box" for so long, though.

Although a pit and a key seem to imply total inability during that bondage, the evidence surrounding the actual activities mentioned about his loosing let us know what that means. Just as BINDING seems to make people think of total inability to do anything, which I proved was wrong, so can PIT and KEY make someone think of total inability. But let us ask ourselves why only ONE issue is accomplished by the devil once he is loosed, and we do not read of ALL EVIL ACTS starting up again after he is loosed.

I propose the binding shows that every single move of satan is under the strict observation of God. 1 Cor 10 teaches the devil can only tempt us in what GOD KNOWS WE CAN HANDLE. Why? He is BOUND. LIMITED.

The devil is not his own master.

Only One can have the KEY to render the devil limited in any degree. JESUS! He has absolute control over the devil, which is symbolized by the pit and the key and the chain. Jesus holds the KEYS TO DEATH AND HELL AND THE GRAVE (Rev 1:18). He got that through the cross.

John's epistle said that Jesus came for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil. That is what the pit stands for.

1Jo 3:8 KJV He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The entire New Testament teaches clearly that satan was definitively defeated by the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. When He ascended He went to the Ancient of Days, in Dan 7. That ATONEMENT caused the Holy Ghost to come to the church in Acts 2.

Before the cross, satan held the nations. You had to go to Israel to know God at all. But after the cross, men like Paul were sent to all nations to turn them from darkness to light and for them to come into the dominion of God from that of satan. That never happened before the cross.

Satan still works, but his activity is restricted more and more as the church continues to spread across the earth.

But the all-important point is the emphasis of the ability for satan to gather nations against the church in war. We read nothing in Rev 20 about bondage so as to not cause crime, rape, etc.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But we must look at all the evidence. The nature of the binding is only revealed by what the devil is said to do after he is no longer bound.

Any bondage requires a "key," so to speak, in order to "loose" one from it.

And we can only determine what all the binding and the pit and the key means by looking at the overall picture at once. We cannot come to the scriptures with ANY preconceived notions. We must come open to be made to understand, by the scriptures themselves, what the scriptures are relating to us. This is VERY hard to do when we have been taught a long a certain line in a certain "box" for so long, though.

Although a pit and a key seem to imply total inability during that bondage, the evidence surrounding the actual activities mentioned about his loosing let us know what that means. Just as BINDING seems to make people think of total inability to do anything, which I proved was wrong, so can PIT and KEY make someone think of total inability. But let us ask ourselves why only ONE issue is accomplished by the devil once he is loosed, and we do not read of ALL EVIL ACTS starting up again after he is loosed.

I propose the binding shows that every single move of God is under the strict observation of God. 1 Cor 10 teaches the devil can only tempt us in what GOD KNOWS WE CAN HANDLE. Why? He is BOUND. LIMITED.

The devil is not his own master.

Only One can have the KEY to render the devil limited in any degree. JESUS! He has absolute control over the devil, which is symbolized by the pit and the key and the chain. Jesus holds the KEYS TO DEATH AND HELL AND THE GRAVE (Rev 1:18). He got that through the cross.

John's epistle said that Jesus came for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil. That is what the pit stands for.



The entire New Testament teaches clearly that satan was definitively defeated by the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. When He ascended He went to the Ancient of Days, in Dan 7. That ATONEMENT caused the Holy Ghost to come to the church in Acts 2.

Before the cross, satan held the nations. You had to go to Israel to know God at all. But after the cross, men like Paul were sent to all nations to turn them from darkness to light and for them to come into the dominion of God from that of satan. That never happened before the cross.

Satan still works, but his activity is restricted more and more as the church continues to spread across the earth.

But the all-important point is the emphasis of the ability for satan to gather nations against the church in war. We read nothing about bondage so as to not cause crime, rape, etc.

Well, I have to say, this is good, Brother Blume.

I felt the presence of God in this:

The entire New Testament teaches clearly that satan was definitively defeated by the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. When He ascended He went to the Ancient of Days, in Dan 7. That ATONEMENT caused the Holy Ghost to come to the church in Acts 2.

Thanks for your time.